Solution for 4300 sq ft rancher 5 bedrooms, 4 baths, 4 adults, triplet boys

so what lottery did you win???

I wish my wife would jump in with me when I was taking a shower.
the three shower head units are very wasteful for water but they seem.
to be what everyone wants when double showering.....

Stay away from the VERTEX units they are junk

you ought to just go with 2 ...75 gallon Bradfords or Rheem standard vent
high recovery heaters and build on the heated room for them......
it would be your best and most simple option... Install them in series....
with 2 heaters even if one goes out you still
will have hot water until it is replaced....


for future issues I suggest you build on a room
that is going to be easy access to both heaters for the day that they will need service or removal......DO NOT cram them into a match box...

as long as you dont spend the day in the shower
with the wife, you should be ok...

Yep, we're going with two of these bad boy 75 gal Bradford White's: http://www.bradfordwhite.com/high-input-atmospheric-vent-models These things will deliver 82 GPH at a 90F rise. That's quite impressive and just about as good as a Vertex but with less complexity.

We're going to build a little shack for the heaters, one for each side of the house. But you suggest installing them in series. I suppose that would be fine since we will have a recirc loop and that'll give us "instant" hot water anyway.

Since these will be outside but in an unheated shack attached to the building, should the WH's have a WH blanket? Or is it not recommended with these new well insulated units? We see temps down to 23F in the winter. But summers get as hot as 110F.

As for the Vertex units, yes I read a bunch of stuff about them - rust issues, bad electronics etc. I want lots of hot water, but I also want it reliably. I've not seen any tankless brand that is completely trouble free and when they go down, it sometimes takes few days to get fixed. Same with the Vertex, although since we'd have two units, it'd be highly unlikely that both would go out at the same time. I figure the basic atmospheric vent BW's should be easy to fix. I'll keep a spare thermocouple around just in case.

master plumber mark said:

I wish my wife would jump in with me when I was taking a shower.
the three shower head units are very wasteful for water but they seem.
to be what everyone wants when double showering.....

Stay away from the VERTEX units they are junk

you ought to just go with 2 ...75 gallon Bradfords or Rheem standard vent
high recovery heaters and build on the heated room for them......
it would be your best and most simple option... Install them in series....
with 2 heaters even if one goes out you still
will have hot water until it is replaced....


for future issues I suggest you build on a room
that is going to be easy access to both heaters for the day that they will need service or removal......DO NOT cram them into a match box...

as long as you dont spend the day in the shower
with the wife, you should be ok...

Click to expand...

TheLex said:

Yep, we're going with two of these bad boy 75 gal Bradford White's: http://www.bradfordwhite.com/high-input-atmospheric-vent-models These things will deliver 82 GPH at a 90F rise. That's quite impressive and just about as good as a Vertex but with less complexity.

We're going to build a little shack for the heaters, one for each side of the house. But you suggest installing them in series. I suppose that would be fine since we will have a recirc loop and that'll give us "instant" hot water anyway.

Since these will be outside but in an unheated shack attached to the building, should the WH's have a WH blanket? Or is it not recommended with these new well insulated units? We see temps down to 23F in the winter. But summers get as hot as 110F.

As for the Vertex units, yes I read a bunch of stuff about them - rust issues, bad electronics etc. I want lots of hot water, but I also want it reliably. I've not seen any tankless brand that is completely trouble free and when they go down, it sometimes takes few days to get fixed. Same with the Vertex, although since we'd have two units, it'd be highly unlikely that both would go out at the same time. I figure the basic atmospheric vent BW's should be easy to fix. I'll keep a spare thermocouple around just in case.

Click to expand...

The bradfords will work fine but it is wise to at least have some sort of way to
heat the rooms in the in the winter........ like already stated it is better to
install both of them in series and in a room large enough for future change outs
and service....

Installing a 220v space heater in the room would be prudent
and insualteing the pex water lines would be very wise too..
wintertime you do not want a frozen of cracked line
somewhere between the house and
the built on structure.....


Summertime you will get free
heat and it might even be wise to have an air intake
installed to so it gets fresh air.... also if this is all outside you could
even do a "solar loop" with a few hundred feet of pex pipe sitting on the roof of
this "shack" with a bypass and pre-heat the water before
it goes into the heaters......thats a nice feature to consider....



I suggest you build something better
than just an shack or outhouse to install these tanks into
cause you got to look at them for a long time

quote; also if this is all outside you could
even do a "solar loop" with a few hundred feet of pex pipe sitting on the roof of
this "shack" with a bypass and pre-heat the water before
it goes into the heaters......that's a nice feature to consider....

It is also several hundred feet of pipe to freeze, and "precool" the water in the winter time. Two heaters in series will give EVERYONE twice the capacity of a single heater, whereas, with heaters at each end each one is limited to the output of a single heater, although you do get the hot water faster without the use of a circulation loop and pump.

quote; it might even be wise to have an air intake installed to so it gets fresh air.

With a gas heater you MUST have a low air intake, and a high second "air exhaust", to comply with the codes and requirements of ALL combustion using appliances in small areas.

hj said:

quote; also if this is all outside you could
even do a "solar loop" with a few hundred feet of pex pipe sitting on the roof of
this "shack" with a bypass and pre-heat the water before
it goes into the heaters......that's a nice feature to consider....

It is also several hundred feet of pipe to freeze, and "precool" the water in the winter time. Two heaters in series will give EVERYONE twice the capacity of a single heater, whereas, with heaters at each end each one is limited to the output of a single heater, although you do get the hot water faster without the use of a circulation loop and pump.

quote; it might even be wise to have an air intakeinstalled to so it gets fresh air.

With a gas heater you MUST have a low air intake, and a high second "air exhaust", to comply with the codes and requirements of ALL combustion using appliances in small areas.

Click to expand...

HJ....
you are in a feisty mood tonight.....

yes it is probably code for an air intake into the built on room
so sorry for stating the obvious to everyone.........


the bypass I was attempting to explain would be what you bypass
on that solar loop on the roof for the wintertime and then it drains down so
it dont freeze.... probably though a boiler drain in the water heater room...
something like you do when you winterize a pool..... now does that make sense??

I have no idea how much water 200 feet of 3/4 copper or some black painted
aquapex would heat or how fast the pay back would take....
But this little solar heating project would certainly pre-heat a fair a
mount of water if the guy is into passive solar heating
in the summer time..... ok?

now some guys get into doing solar projects like this.....

and some guys just want to have a long showers with their wife.
in their huge 4 shower head shower rooms.......

me, I would probably do both .....


any complaints about my suggestion about making the "shack" large enough
to access and change out the heaters easily some day??

I like the idea of installing the WH's in series so that we have a full 150 gal reserve. And then the two could potentially make over 160GPH at a 90F rise. That would be way more capacity that we'll ever use probably.

The "shack" is not going to be some cheap thing. Actually we already have a garden shed but it's not insulated and it's 60 ft from the house. It would be impractical and too expensive to trench everything so that we could run power and lines.

Instead, we are going to build a small "bump out" from the house on the side that has a lot of equipment already i.e. HVAC unit, pool equipment, etc. The "shack" will be made to look like it's part of the house and hidden by bushes so you can't see it from head on, only side view. The door will be big enough for easy access in case anything needs servicing.

My contractor want to use insulated aquaplex except in the areas where it runs under insulation. He claims that existing insulation will give a better R value than the insulation on the aquaplex. I'm not sure that's true so I'm going to request that all hot water lines be the insulated aquaplex variety.

As for free solar heating of the water during the summer, that's not necessary. It's typically 100F ++ here during the summer. The water is warmed up due to the ambient air temperature so no need for solar water heating here. The same with heating the house. The last thing we want during the summer is for the house to be any warmer!

Do I need to heat the "shack"?? In the winter it gets down to 25F or so. Aren't the water heaters insulated enough already? Would a WH blanket work? I don't want to pay to heat the space because that's a big expense.

Thanks.

master plumber mark said:

The bradfords will work fine but it is wise to at least have some sort of way to
heat the rooms in the in the winter........ like already stated it is better to
install both of them in series and in a room large enough for future change outs
and service....

Installing a 220v space heater in the room would be prudent
and insualteing the pex water lines would be very wise too..
wintertime you do not want a frozen of cracked line
somewhere between the house and
the built on structure.....


Summertime you will get free
heat and it might even be wise to have an air intake
installed to so it gets fresh air.... also if this is all outside you could
even do a "solar loop" with a few hundred feet of pex pipe sitting on the roof of
this "shack" with a bypass and pre-heat the water before
it goes into the heaters......thats a nice feature to consider....



I suggest you build something better
than just an shack or outhouse to install these tanks into
cause you got to look at them for a long time

Click to expand...

The WH's will give some heat to the room, but with their insulation and the fact that in the coldest part of the night, they may not be running - plus, you won't get much convection heating through the pipe as if it were copper, the water may end up colder than desired. Pex can't be run directly into the WH, there's a restriction on that because of the burner and max heat around the flue, so that may not be as much of an issue. IF the recirculation system isn't on a timer, it would be continually moving the water, and keeping the lines warm, but not the incoming cold line.

Haven't run the numbers, if the bumpout is insulated, it should remain above freezing, but are those models closed combustion? If not, then the required louvers for proper combustion air will be a fairly big air leak, so depending on the temp and the wind direction...it could get pretty close to the air temp in there...that may be long enough and cold to be an issue.

The WH's will be in the "bump out shack". I would think that this shack would be insulated to some degree but I have not asked yet. If they are not, will the WH's use more gas to keep the water hot due to heat loss? Should I have WH blankets wrapping them?

The recirc line will most likely be on a time so that we don't run the pump all the time, although if the electricity used is minimal, I might just let it run all the time.

I know there are various venting models such as the direct vent/power vent type models. Is one type more appropriate for my situation?

Thanks.

jadnashua said:

The WH's will give some heat to the room, but with their insulation and the fact that in the coldest part of the night, they may not be running - plus, you won't get much convection heating through the pipe as if it were copper, the water may end up colder than desired. Pex can't be run directly into the WH, there's a restriction on that because of the burner and max heat around the flue, so that may not be as much of an issue. IF the recirculation system isn't on a timer, it would be continually moving the water, and keeping the lines warm, but not the incoming cold line.

Haven't run the numbers, if the bumpout is insulated, it should remain above freezing, but are those models closed combustion? If not, then the required louvers for proper combustion air will be a fairly big air leak, so depending on the temp and the wind direction...it could get pretty close to the air temp in there...that may be long enough and cold to be an issue.

Click to expand...

insulated shack

Like I mentioned you need some sort of air vent
coming down from the roof to give the heaters enough
incomming fresh air..... this will be cold air in the wintertime...

in all honesty, you could probably just get by without doing
anything , but if it were mine I would at least install a thermostatically
controlled space heater like you would use on a porch....
that would probably suffice...

any contractor worth his salt would insulate the building


Just Install the cheap common standard air type vented water heaters.... S
tay away from the POWER VENTED ones because there is simply more than can go wrong with them and they are about twice the price...



If it were my house I would add the
summer solar heating of the water...

but who cares...