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Thread: Restaurant plumbing corrections

  1. #31
    DIY Senior Member kcodyjr's Avatar
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    There are some would-be DIYers whose tool skills top out at intermediate spork. You do have a point there.

    That's no reason to flatly bar the rest of us, when an already-mandatory inspection can easily distinguish decent DIYer from backyard terrorist.

  2. #32
    DIY Senior Member kcodyjr's Avatar
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    I was right up front that this clown should not be screwing around at a restaurant, of all places. If Tom wants to knock him on his duff, I'll be happy to hold him. Just so that's crystal clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    d) Fill sewer lines with grease.
    Good to know. Yet another reason not to mess around with the most sensitive commercial plumbing use case imaginable.

    Yeah, really. People don't eat at heavy industrial and sewage treatment plants.

    I could take the opportunity to improve my knowledge by asking about double check valves, and what's the change of air break distance, and why is any distance beyond "above the max flood level" meaningful, and what are the likely screwup points in a restaurant that might or might not occur in a home... but I think I'd rather stay on the education topic generally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Most IT people I know have been to college and have a degree for that. My brother Clare did.
    Most software developers seem to. Most systems administrators do not; we view a degree as proof that a candidate knows how to sit still and BS for four years, which is nice, but not central to their job function. We're more impressed with track record, depth of knowledge, and the ability to think on one's feet. Consequently, the back-room I.T. department is still very much a guild trade, but we do it without such ridiculous barriers to entry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    So what you are saying is there needs to be education? I agree with that
    Make it reasonably accessible, and I'll buy into it.

    It shouldn't take a 4 years as an apprentice plus four years as a journeyman to work on my own stuff. On the flip side, I'm sure it should take that long before I ought to be working on the kitchen of a high rise hotel. Not everyone interested in acquiring a skill wants to do it for a living, but everyone acquiring any skill wants to use it to their own benefit, directly or indirectly.

    If it's a matter of taking a course or three, passing practical and written tests at the end, and then I get a limited license good only for getting permits on premises I reside in, sign me right the hell up please.

    That said, it's not the licensing requirements that prevent water-contaminating incidents, it's the inspection process proving that code requirements have been complied with independently of the profit motive. I can appreciate their workload only allows limited time showing homeowners what they did wrong, and I'm all for schemes to dissuade the true morons. Simply locking out not-for-a-living folks is unreasonable.

  3. #33
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    I've been working on computers since 1985.
    When I took AutoCad classes at the Vo-Tech, the instructor had me help the architects lean the program. I've done some web page work. Looks pretty basic to today's standards now. I work with a server with about seven domains running off of it. But heck, I feel lost at times. I'm setting up a new shopping cart this month that I haven't made visible yet. It's going to take me some time to figure that one out too.
    What I'm saying is; to do things really right, it takes years before you even know the question to ask.
    Before you can think of the question, you can't even begin to know what comes next. You don't know enough about the trades to go there right now about how quickly it can be understood and learned. You haven't learned the questions yet.

    And I don't know the right questions to ask about software.

  4. #34
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    quote; Commercial work is a whole different ball of wax, and an amateur simply shouldn't be screwing with it.

    I am glad you added this line, because he IS working on commercial job, so your rants about "homeowner doing it himself" do NOT apply here. A homeowner can do things that destroy his house and nobody would care, but that is an entirely different situation that doing it in a commercial building where he could affect customers or other establishments. NOT all "modern meters" have check valves and even when they do, they are NOT an approved anti contamination device, just as check valves and double checks are NOT.

    quote; why is any distance beyond "above the max flood level" meaningful,

    1. They have to consider what could be done IN THE FUTURE, not just now
    2. There are conditions which can induce a negative pressure, and the resulting suction CAN pull water across the "max flood level of the fixture".
    3. Testing laboratories, such as Chicago's Cabrini Street, can induce conditions which may not ALWAYS occur, but can under specific situations, but since they CANNOT tell in advance when, or if, those conditions will occur they write the codes to cover them, even if YOU think the restrictions are "ludicrous".
    Last edited by hj; 12-21-2013 at 02:01 PM.
    Licensed residential and commercial plumber

  5. #35
    DIY Senior Member kcodyjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    What I'm saying is; to do things really right, it takes years before you even know the question to ask.
    You haven't learned the questions yet.
    It takes years to learn the questions by watching a master at work, especially if the apprentice is expected to learn the last lesson before being given credit for the first one. If the subject matter can be presented in an orderly fashion, knowledge transfer takes far less time, and more importantly, intermediate certifications become possible.

    Thing is, all the questions have been asked by now, and at that point, more structured and targeted learning becomes possible. Regardless of what's actually being taught, I've neither seen nor heard a good reason why it's got to be done in such a slow, exclusionist way. I can only see two lousy reasons in fact; either union-like institutional protectionism, or sheer lack of effort in the knowledge management department.

    Put another way, the first time a nuclear bomb was built, it was the job of the brightest scientific minds in all of history. The second time, it was the job of a skilled machinist. By the thousandth, it was essentially the job of factory line workers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    And I don't know the right questions to ask about software.
    Setting up shopping carts is not the stuff of beginners, I don't care how glitzy the framework kit tries to make it.

    So, forgive me, but, BS. If you've gotten as far as you have, then you knew enough simply to ask the question that's in front of you.

    That's the essence of DIY, in any subject, right there: exposing the questions, finding the answers, and applying them. The fact that I could have set that shopping cart up in 1/10 the time does not in any way invalidate your thus-far successful efforts to learn it yourself.

    The difference between fields, and the reason plumbers and electricians get so much flak, is in how those questions get answered.

    If I ask a car mechanic about replacing some obscure part, generally he'll answer if the question seems specific enough to demonstrate some degree of knowledge. "How do I change the brakes" is a bad question, better suited for a well written how-to document; "Why does it matter what direction the pad shims go in" is an example of a good question.

    If I ask a nuclear physicist what mischief could be done with the americium sample in a smoke detector, I've little doubt he'll jump at the chance to talk about his 9th level blackbelt nerd-fu and how he used some in high school to vaporize the water in the girls' lavatory.

    If I ask a Marine Corps sniper about shooting bad guys while hidden in the bush, he'll probably try to introduce me to a recruiter if he's active or recent, and he'll no doubt regale me with war stories if he's older.

    But, ask a plumber about the simplest of alterations, you'll get some version of "If you have to ask, you don't know enough to know."

    It doesn't take an aberrant personality to feel like such an answer is really just financial self-defense. Right or wrong, that encourages people to just give it a try, hey maybe it'll work, what do the experts know anyway. This can't be good for anyone. Even putting all that aside, there's a certain lack of diplomacy that understandably puts people off.

    Today, I joined a discussion that had become more about DIYers generally than the specific, ill-wrought plumbing question it started as. I did so because I was in a bad mood on the topic anyway, and seeing the sparks just set me off. Perhaps I picked an ambiguous place to do so; the original poster was, after all, breaking the law, and well deserving of a dressing-down. That doesn't justify a whole lot of people hearing what they wanted to hear, though. I never said anything about doing sub-code work, yet I was accused of advocating that. I never said the code requirements were "ludicrous", yet that suggestion was made as well.

    One last time so my position is understood. Code requirements exist for good reason and should be rigidly adhered to in all circumstances. Work done for commercial purposes, or serving more than one residence, should always be done by a fully licensed professional. Homeowners should be allowed, in every state, to perform work within their own property, subject to every other requirement of permits and inspections, without having to obtain a full-blown commercial plumber's license. They indeed should be spanked till their butts are red for failing to pull a permit.

    And most importantly, those willing to learn shouldn't be shot down just for asking questions, or (full circle here) subjected to rants about DIYers generally that should have been directed at the specific example of an idiot hack playing around in a restaurant.

  6. #36
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Compared to plumbing, nuclear bombs are child's play. Just think for a second about the hundreds of thousands of different parts and materials that plumbers work with both new and a hundred years old. And we need to know the science and the theory behind it all too. It's why plumbing is a profession and being a contractor is a trade.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  7. #37
    Master Plumber Caduceus's Avatar
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    I didn't read through all of the posts because after the first page I realized that a very important fact had not yet been brought up and it was one of the first things that entered my mind. The OP mentioned praise from the inspector. Why wouldn't the inspector require the license? In California doesn't pulling the permit indicate that an inspection is required and by who? To file a plumbing plan here, the plumber's license number must be present on the plan and it's checked for validity. If a journeyman and apprentices are on the job, cards are required to be shown on site. Inspectors who have known me for years still ask for my card to keep everybody honest.
    By not asking to see the license and conducting the inspection anyways, the inspector is just as guilty as the unlicensed installer because he/she should know better.

  8. #38
    In the Trades spconstruction's Avatar
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    Lol, come to San Diego, let's see if you can knock me up! Chumps. Passed all my corrections! Little faggots

  9. #39
    In the Trades spconstruction's Avatar
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    BTW ya sound like bitches talking about their boyfriend's. Faggots with beer bellys, overweight, crippled fools who know just to plumb your ass with a test ball. Inflate it to 30lbs and see if you can handle it. This thread been nothing but 2lbs of lard! Lol fools.

  10. #40
    DIY Member tlarson's Avatar
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    OP: No regular on this site will be surprised that someone who is so willing and eager to break the law with impunity would respond as you have. Hopefully you will go away and never come back.

  11. #41
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Having spent some time as a state plumbing inspector I can tell you that his reaction is pretty typical. They all talk big right up until they are standing in front of the judge facing a $5,000.00 fine then they are all " I'm sorry, I didn't know, I'll never do it again"and wining like a little girl. Lol. I'd also bet that there was never a permit or an inspection done either. He's another typical unlicensed handy hack that thinks he's smarter than everybody else. Sooner or later though it will catch up with him. Possibly when his latest job goes bad and causes the lawyers to step in. At that point anything the inspection department throws at him is small potatoes.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  12. #42
    DIY Member themp's Avatar
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    For some reason this crazy thread was interesting for me. That said, does it really take 8 years to be a full plumber allowed to work on residential and commercial jobs in California? I assume there may be union requirements also to follow. This seems to restrictive. Now if we put unions a side, why cannot a 2 year technical school let you do residential work and maybe 2 more years as an apprentice for commercial? Or if you can pass a test speed things up.

    I remember a very old thread on this forum about a guy who wanted to get into the plumbing trade and had to work his way through the union process. From that thread it looked like he was never going to succeed as the union had control of who gets what and who works. I see no reason for this.

    The IT post was a small stretch for safety. But, I have worked in the computer programming business for 35+ years for a large company that produces a lot of code. This code could cause a lot damage both in human and financial losses. But no apprenticeship is required to write this code. I have worked with programmers who had no programming education but are brilliant in design and implementation of that design. And then I have worked with college educated computer science majors who have no clue on good coding and testing practices. And as programming has been now moved off shore to China and India, it is a crap shoot on what you get. But, I can say they are learning and will eat our lunch.

    So, if you want to be a plumber you should be able to do it in a reasonable time frame and not be controlled by artificial procedures and process. The original poster on this thread wants to be a plumber you can 'hear it' in his questions. If the inspector let it happen then it seems ok to me. As one of my favorite movies, Breaking Away, said: Son: I did not know everyone cheats Dad. His father responds: And now you know.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJETB-MfpnQ

  13. #43
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Most states have a four year program. Four years in the apprentice program @ 600 classroom hours along with 2000 OJT hours which translates to working under a master plumber for 4 years, 40 hrs a week. The electricians do roughly the same thing although many states have increased their classroom hours. So 4 years is the average length of time required. It's just like everything else these days. Everybody wants what they want right now. Nobody wants to wait and nobody wants to pay their dues. It's endemic of this generation that feels entitled to have whatever they want without having to prove their worth first.

    After 10 plus years of little or no enforcement, my state now has a new plumbing board, populated with folks that have no tolerance for unlicensed plumbing. We have been aggressively prosecuting non licensed work like gang busters and we have a judge that is throwing the book at the perps.
    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 12-22-2013 at 05:58 PM.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  14. #44
    In the Trades Gary Swart's Avatar
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    The gentleman from North Carolina who sees not reason for the "Union Process", has no clue to what the awful union does. Yes, they insist that jobs be done by union members and the fight to make sure union members receive decent pay and benefits. But, in return, the require their member a qualified in their trade. This mean that when you hire a union tradesman, you can expect quality work. A hack wanna be can't just walk into the union hall and pay his dues and receive the benefits. This is of course why most southern states have a very low wage scale. They are largely non-union.

  15. #45
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    does it really take 8 years to be a full plumber allowed to work on residential and commercial jobs in California?
    Nobody ever said it would take eight years to be a four year journeyman. I think there was a poster that counted four and then added those four again. It's always been four.
    Math is helpful in the trades. Maybe a person having trouble adding would need eight years.

    I will say this about some things mechanical. When I was young, I was able to rebuild car engines using a Chilton book. It was a predesigned object with parts and a book to explain how to take it apart, and put it back together again.

    Most things in the trades don't have that. The installer "is" the designer.

    Because I could rebuild an engine, didn't mean I knew how to make it out of molten metal. It was a predesigned kit that I could work with. Engineers had made all the construction decisions at the factory. It was just nuts and bolts after that.
    Last edited by Terry; 12-22-2013 at 10:07 PM.

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