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Thread: Restaurant plumbing corrections

  1. #16
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    as a homeowner I'm allowed to do anything I please, in my state, county, city.
    When I travel to other countries, you know, the ones where you can't drink the water without getting sick, so therefore you need to take shots "before" you go, and they tell you don't drink from a bottle unless it top "pops" off. Don't drink from refilled bottles

    What makes this a first world country is licensing of certain fields.
    Plumbing is one, and that is so that we don't poison the community water supply, which has happened with restaurant plumbing. That is why it requires a commercial license to work on that plumbing. Four years under an apprenticship. At the end of four years, you can take the commercial test for plumbers. They don't view it as a learn as you go type of thing.
    It may be that the local inspector has no idea that the person doing the work is unlicensed. I rarely get asked for my card, even though I carry it in my wallet.
    Whenever I get back from traveling, I feel like kissing the ground here. It is so much cleaner and safer. And that takes cooperation, and laws, and people that follow laws.
    If you want to see what it's like to have the freedom to polute your neigbors water, just travel to those areas of the world. See it first hand. It will change the way you think.
    And by the way. The bible has plenty of "laws" mentioned in it. One is to treat your neighbor as you would want to be treated.
    In other words, don't mess with the water supply we all drink from.

    A picture showing more of the job would help. Seeing just a few fittings doesn't show much of the layout.

    This is true freedom. There are no electrical or plumbing laws here.



    Electrical wiring in India. They have more freedom there. Don't you wish the US had freedom like this to run wires anyway you like?
    But wait......we have lawyers here. We sue people that kill our kids by electrocuting them.



    A public sewer line and convenient bathroom. This is why most of the women have long dresses. They can squat over the ditch.



    A woman pumping water, just a few feet from the sewer ditch that people pee in.
    Last edited by Terry; 12-20-2013 at 10:53 AM.

  2. #17
    DIY Member ImOld's Avatar
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    I'm shocked I tell you...................shocked.

    That's two people that chose to read and edit my post as a means to their spin.

    Do I need to use this as a means of a getting your attention?

    It's your "Holier than thou" attitude.

    In other words, you need an attitude adjustment.

    Remember, there are Federal laws covering verbal abuse of old prople.

  3. #18
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    I'm sorry to be so mean to you.
    I will take up my bible today and be gooder.

    When I was in India, I enjoyed going to all the religious sites. Pretty cool.
    Last edited by Terry; 12-20-2013 at 12:09 PM.

  4. #19
    DIY Member ImOld's Avatar
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    How long does it take a plumber to put in a P trap?

    First you have to teach them the alphabet.

  5. #20
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImOld View Post
    How long does it take a plumber to put in a P trap?

    First you have to teach them the alphabet.
    "If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber". Albert Einstein
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  6. #21
    In the Trades Gary Swart's Avatar
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    Well, this was fun!

  7. #22
    DIY Senior Member dj2's Avatar
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    Tom Sawyer,

    It's funny you mentioned Einstein, because he also said this: “Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.”

  8. #23
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dj2 View Post
    Tom Sawyer,

    It's funny you mentioned Einstein, because he also said this: “Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.”
    And that is relevant here why? This has nothing to do with truth or knowledge. It has to do with breaking the law and a bunch of non licensed diy'ers getting their panties in a bunch when they get called out for it. Terry is 100% right here. We have rules, laws and regulations for a reason.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member kcodyjr's Avatar
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    Original Poster, you're obviously doing commercial work without a license. If you have any decency, stop now. A plumbing error in a restaurant could potentially poison thousands of people. If that happened, you would rightly deserve a decade long stay in substandard state housing, with very substandard neighbors, and all the unpleasant things they'd do to you day and night.

    That said, the general holier-than-thou attitude is a legitimate gripe. Even in this excessively liberal state, I can pay double the license fee for extra scrutiny and do my own electrical work, including main panels. There's no good reason that shouldn't apply to plumbing, even gas fitting, although I'd feel better with triple fees and scrutiny in that case. Up to code is up to code, it doesn't start producing magical protective fairy farts just because the work was performed by an Anointed Hand.

    I'm a 16 year I.T. professional. You don't hear us bitching about stolen work when someone botches their own upgrade, we just collect our hourly fee for straightening it out and laugh all the way to the bank. If computer techs did business the way some plumbers seem to, we'd throw a hissy fit every time someone wiped off their own monitor.

    I'm talking about owner-occupied residences, which IMO includes the situation when one unlicensed neighbor asks another for help without pay. Commercial work is a whole different ball of wax, and an amateur simply shouldn't be screwing with it. In any field.

  10. #25
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcodyjr View Post
    Original Poster, you're obviously doing commercial work without a license. If you have any decency, stop now. A plumbing error in a restaurant could potentially poison thousands of people. If that happened, you would rightly deserve a decade long stay in substandard state housing, with very substandard neighbors, and all the unpleasant things they'd do to you day and night.

    That said, the general holier-than-thou attitude is a legitimate gripe. Even in this excessively liberal state, I can pay double the license fee for extra scrutiny and do my own electrical work, including main panels. There's no good reason that shouldn't apply to plumbing, even gas fitting, although I'd feel better with triple fees and scrutiny in that case. Up to code is up to code, it doesn't start producing magical protective fairy farts just because the work was performed by an Anointed Hand.

    I'm a 16 year I.T. professional. You don't hear us bitching about stolen work when someone botches their own upgrade, we just collect our hourly fee for straightening it out and laugh all the way to the bank. If computer techs did business the way some plumbers seem to, we'd throw a hissy fit every time someone wiped off their own monitor.

    I'm talking about owner-occupied residences, which IMO includes the situation when one unlicensed neighbor asks another for help without pay. Commercial work is a whole different ball of wax, and an amateur simply shouldn't be screwing with it. In any field.


    Someone botching their software/hardware upgrade ain't gonna have the possibility of polluting the potable water supply and possibly killing a bunch of innocent folks. Part of the problem here is that the average unlicensed homeowner has no clue about back flow and cross connection. Nor do a lot of them realize that I permitted and I inspected work can and will lead to the insurance company not honoring your claim when you screw something up and damage your home and possibly your neighbors in the process. Lets not forget what happens when you go to sell your home and the inspector finds all the sub-standard work you did on the cheap. Fixing computers and plumbing are about as far apart as you can get.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  11. #26
    DIY Senior Member craigpump's Avatar
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    I dont really care what he does within his own home, its his health. However, I would report him to the state in a heartbeat for doing commercial work without the proper license, and any inspector that would let him do that work without a license should be reported as well.

    As for doing IT work at home, I see your point but I haven't heard of anyone's health being affected by doing their own upgrades.

  12. #27
    DIY Senior Member kcodyjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    [/B]
    back flow and cross connection.
    Modern meters have backflow preventers. I would consider that, or a detailed picture of the new work filed with the permit application, a perfectly sensible prerequisite to letting a homeowner mess with their internal plumbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    [/B]
    Lets not forget what happens when you go to sell your home and the inspector finds all the sub-standard work you did on the cheap.
    Who said anything about sub-standard work? I said a homeowner should be able to get the permit and do it themselves. That certainly implies passing inspection. Trying to imply that DIY must always equal substandard isn't helping your case, it's making you seem hotheaded and immune to reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    [/B]
    Fixing computers and plumbing are about as far apart as you can get.
    Everyone thinks their specialty is somehow special. It isn't.

    I haven't spent my career fixing people's desktop PC's any more than you've spent yours changing out handles on sillcocks.

    A data center installation is equally likely to cause a fire or poison people as a plumbing screwup. We've got lots of equipment packed into tight spaces, lots of current in and heat out. Cable jackets aren't made of potable materials. Sometimes there's water cooling. There's nearly always AC, and it's usually way under spec for the amount of heat the computers produce.

    Invariably, the ugliest part of the room is the piping for the AC. The installers just never seem to bother with making their stuff neat.

    And how about the dangers inherent in computers themselves? Someone can so easily leak personal information and f**k up their credit for life, which damages the economy for everyone and makes all of our money worth less. Should we then require computing licenses for people to shop on Amazon? Why not, their ignorance is screwing it up bigtime for everyone else!

    The rational answer is that aversion is not the only, nor always the best, way to manage risk.

    Every discipline has risks, and things that can go horribly wrong, in ways that can affect others. Plumbing is not special in this regard.

    For historical reference on this tendency of specialists to think they're special, see this:

    http://www.spacefuture.com/vehicles/...won_nafa.shtml

  13. #28
    DIY Senior Member kcodyjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigpump View Post
    As for doing IT work at home, I see your point but I haven't heard of anyone's health being affected by doing their own upgrades.
    Screw up the heat management, and parts start to cook and outgas just like any other electrical appliance. Nothing they emit is good for you. Granted it has to be a chronic issue to give you cancer, but there's enough clueless pimply faced gaming addicts to create a problem population.

    It used to be, connecting the wrong peripheral could put the power supply into a near overload condition that would mess with every light and fan in the house, but modern power factor chips have solved that.

    I'll grant you, long chain of relatively unlikely events to result in a health issue. Let's look at the risks with plumbing.

    I see three classes of health issue possible:

    a) contamination of supply due to cross-connection plus a backflow event

    b) contamination of supply due to improper materials selection

    c) contamination of interior air due to improper drain venting

    To make any of that happen, specific well-understood mistakes have to be made. I don't see the point of writing a book about that here; it's all over the forums if one spends some time searching for it. Point is, the hazards are understood and could so easily be written down into a small pamphlet, but plumbers don't want that happening any more than restauranteurs want people cooking at home.

  14. #29
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    d) Fill sewer lines with grease.

    Some restaurants are required to have $20,000 grease traps installed to capture the grease before it heads down-line and blocks the sewer lines. Those require cleaning.

    There are many ways to cross connect in a restaurant. And many of the larger meters don't have check valves. And even so, that has not been considered enough to prevent a cross connection, it's more to prevent so much siphoning down when the city works on a broken line.
    They make backflow preventers for that purpose. Some are reduced pressure back flow devices that need yearly testing.

    Check valves on water meters. That's a new thing, and not everybody has those.
    New homes have vacuum breakers on outside faucets and have raised the air break on tub spouts. The distance between the end of spout and overflow level. Think old claw foot tubs.

    Most IT people I know have been to college and have a degree for that. My brother Clare did.
    So what you are saying is there needs to be education? I agree with that
    Last edited by Terry; 12-21-2013 at 02:34 PM.

  15. #30
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Point is, the hazards are understood and could so easily be written down into a small pamphlet, but plumbers don't want that
    We have drawings of the proper way, and people still look at those and want to cheat on the layout.
    It's more than a few words and pictures. They have to understand the underlying logic before they buy into it.

    A job I looked at in Seattle, previous DIY had used Studor Vents on everything, but buried them in the walls without access or venting to the room. A big No-no. Having something doesn't make it right.
    I can take a hammer and pound nails all day long. I hand it to someone else, and they're bending nails left and right. There are different levels of knowledge and skill.
    Last edited by Terry; 12-21-2013 at 10:53 AM.

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