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Thread: Cycle stop Valve help

  1. #16
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    No, I mean about 10 PSI below that. I assume from what you wrote, that you have a Square-D switch with a lever on the side that you have to hold "just so" to reset it when it trips (low cut-off).

  2. #17
    DIY Senior Member Reach4's Avatar
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    The low pressjure cutoff is a cutoff that detects the pressure has fallen too far below the normal pump-turnon pressure. This could indicate that the water level has fallen, the pump failed, or some other thing has failed. A concern would be that some minor fluctuation might cause the condition to be detected too sensitively.

  3. #18
    DIY Member Maxbrandy's Avatar
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    thats exactly what I have.

    I have that set around 40ish now
    pressure tank at 38

  4. #19
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    OK, glad that is confirmed. Have you determined what PSI the low cut-off actually trips?

    The actual trip point is not adjustable and generally follows 10 to 20 PSI below the cut-in setting. In my case it would invariably trip when I was not home and I would have to talk my wife through resetting it over the phone.

    A happy wife is a happy life, hence my switching to the EPS15/99.

    I have never had a legitimate reason for it to trip so as far as protection goes, it has never provided any protection, only nuisance.

  5. #20
    DIY Member Maxbrandy's Avatar
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    OK OK.... Now I got what your saying.. also thanks Reach.... I have to say never heard of the low cut off, only the cut in , which is confsuing enough when learning about this stuff... cut in , low / cut out - high.

    I have no clue what the low cut out would be, how would I test that? I know today when I had the fixtures and drain open I got down to around psi, my cut in is right around 44, but I could swear I set that at 40 when installed the valve.

    Well, last week the wife was in shower at 4:30 am, the thing crapped out ..... I showed her how to reset the switch when this first started happening, she was a good sport about it, she didnt even wake me up to fix it.... had to be chilly heading to the basement 1/2 way thru the shower... yikes

  6. #21
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxbrandy View Post
    I have no clue what the low cut out would be, how would I test that?
    Turn the pump breaker off.
    Remove the cover from the Square-D.
    Watch the pressure gauge and the contacts while you drain the tank.
    You will see the contacts close. The gauge will indicate the cut-in setting.
    Continue draining the tank. The contacts will open. The gauge will indicate the low cut-out pressure.
    Close the draincock.
    Put the cover back on. Turn the breaker back on. Hold the reset lever "just so" until the pressure exceeds the low cut-out pressure.

  7. #22
    DIY Member Maxbrandy's Avatar
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    OK I will try that tomorrow afternoon,

    Still wondering why the pressure is drooping so low, not like I am exceeding the demand?

    I will report the finding back to you

    Thank you LL

  8. #23
    DIY Senior Member Reach4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxbrandy View Post
    Still wondering why the pressure is drooping so low, not like I am exceeding the demand?
    See http://www.terrylove.com/forums/show...r-5-10-seconds for one possible explanation.

  9. #24
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    That thread left more questions than answers.

    One possibility is that draw does in fact exceed supply but not in the traditional sense. There could be a leak stealing some of the supply capacity. If there is a topside checkvalve, it will mask a leak in the line. As long as the leak is small enough for the pump to reach the cut-off pressure, it can go unnoticed for a long time. A neighbor had a leak that got progressively worse. For months he was arguing with the PoCo over his high electric bill. He only finally realized the cause when the pump could no longer reach the high pressure cut-off.

    Other low flow cases have been attributed to galvanized pipe/fittings that had so much internal corrosion that they narrowed to smaller than a pencil. Looks fine on the outside but passes very little water.

    One concern I have is the size of pump (1 HP) relative to the high water level (20 feet). If a pump does not have enough head (resistance) on startup, it can suffer from upthrust which wears down the tops of the impellers.

  10. #25
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Turn the pump breaker off.
    Remove the cover from the Square-D.
    Watch the pressure gauge and the contacts while you drain the tank.
    You will see the contacts close. The gauge will indicate the cut-in setting.
    Continue draining the tank. The contacts will open. The gauge will indicate the low cut-out pressure.
    Close the draincock.
    Put the cover back on. Turn the breaker back on. Hold the reset lever "just so" until the pressure exceeds the low cut-out pressure.

    Good advice.

    Also a good idea is to look at the Switch Contacts and clean them with the power off, and tighten the connections.

    It could just be that the pump is not starting, because the contact do not make every time.

    Clean the ants out while you are inside the switch too.

    Is your pump a three wire pump ? Do you have a Pump Control Box ?


    Good Luck
    Last edited by DonL; 12-09-2013 at 05:18 AM.
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  11. #26
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Ja, lots of possibilities. Could also be a failing cap that causes the pump to thermal overload. By the time you get to reset the switch, the pump (and cap) would have cooled.

    Diagnosing over the internet is much harder than being there.

  12. #27
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    If the motor does use a Capacitor it could be bad, and it can be hit or miss for a pump start.

    Cold or Hot Temperature affects caps just like batteries.

    I use the low pressure cut off switches, and yes it is a PITA to reset.

    But there IS a problem if you have to reset it.


    Many people disable safety devices that are just doing their job.

    Bad Idea...
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  13. #28
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    But there IS a problem if you have to reset it.
    I disagree. It may be a symptom but not necessarily a problem. Mine would trip when demand exceeded supply. For example, the wife filling her soaker tub, flushing the toilet, and drawing water at the sink. Another nuisance trip is on power fail. When the power comes back on, the pump wouldn't. With the EPS15/99 neither of those are an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Many people disable safety devices that are just doing their job.

    Bad Idea...
    I don't see how that can be categorized as a safety device. Are you saying the Square-D switches that don't have the low pressure cut-off are inherently unsafe? IMHO, they are a half-baked idea that hasn't been fully thought out and are mostly a marketing gimmick.

  14. #29
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    A lot of times the trip on low pressure is caused by too much air in the pressure tank. Anytime the bladder hits the bottom of the tank, the low pressure will trip off. So no matter what pressure it is set to shut off, a low pressure “safety switch” will always go off at exactly the same pressure as the air charge in a bladder tank. Without a bladder style tank, sometimes the switch is just mounted too far from the pressure tank.

    However, low-pressure switches are supposed to go off when demand exceeds supply, and that is what they do. Yes it is a pain to crawl under the house to reset a pressure switch. Yes it is hard to tell the wife she only has a 5 GPM pump, and so she can only fill her tube with the fill valve way open. Yes it is agonizing to explain to the brother in law over the phone how to crawl under the house to reset the pressure switch after a power outage or after she “overfilled” the tub. But those little levers on the side of that switch have saved countless pumps from running when there is no water to pump. The only time they don’t work on a dry well application is when no water is actually being used, and the pump runs dry while trying to refill the pressure tank.

    I use the Allen Bradley 836 as a low pressure kill for more technical pump systems. It is infinitely adjustable to the pressure and bandwidth you want to work at. However, it doesn’t have the little lever to reset with, and it can’t do both jobs with one switch. I have to use one switch to turn the pump on/off at the regular 90/100, and wire it in combination with another switch so I can set a low pressure shut down for 60 PSI. This way it takes two pressure switches for each pump, and you need a way to bypass the low-pressure switch just to get the system up to 60 PSI. I use a push and hold button to bypass the low-pressure switch until the system is charged.

    As I said earlier, there are situations where a low-pressure kill will not shut the system off when the pump runs dry. For that reason I use a Dry Well device like the Cycle Sensor. These devices look at amp draw instead of pressure. They can tell if the pump is running dry under any condition.

    I use the low-pressure kill to prevent flooding during a major line break, not for dry well protection. A line break can turn a golf course into a lake by the time someone wakes up in the morning. So a low-pressure kill is very important on larger systems.

    Also when using a Cycle Sensor for Dry Well Protection, it can be set to restart automatically between 1 and 500 minutes. That way you can tell the wife to cut the tub fill in half, and wait one minute for the pump to come back on. Happy wife, happy life!

  15. #30
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valveman View Post
    I use the low-pressure kill to prevent flooding during a major line break, not for dry well protection.
    Yes, that use has crossed my mind. If the low cut-off on the Square-D were adjustable or even fixed at a much lower setpoint like your EPS is, then I would probably still be using one. One thing I do like about your EPS is that the wife can reset it at the breaker panel without having to go down into the crawlspace. Most times she doesn't even need to since it resets itself when the power comes back on.

    Now if only her sat dish receiver would reset to her fav list, I'd be living the dream.

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