Is a pside-kick right for me?

sgl · Dec 7, 2013

My setup:

Ulilitech Pro UT202 3/4HP 2-wire pump (12GPM @ 60', 10.8GPM @100').

Well-x-trolWX-202 pressure tank.

Pressure switch set at 30/50 (I think - pressure guage rusted & not reliable).

Water level in well somewhere between 50-70' below ground. I replaced my old pump with the one above, in October, but wasn't thinking about water level at the time, so only have a reasonable guess).

My main issues/concerns are that I am getting what i think is excessive cycling, and also that the tank is 30 years old. i hear water hammer noises. nervous that it's going to go south soon, so this is a pre-emptive fix.

i really don't have an issue with pressure variation. does it exist? yes. but it is not botersome.

but, i ran across the pside-kick product, and it seemed to be a simple solution, and a space saver.

would the product be a good solution for me? the plumbing in the house is modest: 1 bath, 1 washing machine (HE), 1 kitchen sink, 1 dishwasher, and several outside taps (some of which i have soaker hoses/timers attached to, for a small garden, in the spring/summer).

can my pump, using a pside-kick, really handle having a shower, dishwasher,and washing machine all running at the same time? and would i really have less cycling than just replacing the pressure tank with a like-sized model, that would, i assume, not cycle as often?

note: i think my tank is ok, but the pressure switch/tube might be clogged. and my take on it is to not mess with it, since it's technically working, but rather replace it all, since it's all so old.

so, thoughts on a standard tank, or pside-kick, for my situation?

thanks,

sgl

Valveman · Dec 7, 2013

The WX202 that you have only holds 5 gallons of water when it is new and working correctly. The Pside-Kick kit would be a good way to replace that tank. Even though the 4.5 gallon tank in the kit only holds 1 gallon of water, the CSV will eliminate the cycling and the water hammer. And you may not think the pressure fluctuation has been a problem in the past, but you have yet to experience constant pressure.

I am old and years ago didn’t think a “fancy” cruise control was important in a car. But after I had a car with cruise control, I realized how NICE it is. It is the same with a constant pressure water system. You will wonder how you lived with an old system cycling like that for so long.

Sponsor · 2022-01-29T12:20:58-0800

sgl · Dec 7, 2013

thanks for they reply.

how about my pump being able to supply enough water for multiple uses at the same time (shower, sink, washing machine, etc.)? is that a concern?

another question i have is about the pressure - can a pside-kick valve be adjusted to30/50 (with the constant pressure at 40)? or would i even want to bother? i ask because i wonder what pressure my plumbing (CPVC) can handle.

how about the pressure on the black plastic supply pipe coming from the pump? is that an issue?

thanks again!

sgl

Valveman · Dec 8, 2013

Water comes from the pump, not the tank. Your old tank only holds 5 gallons of water. Your 12 GPM pump can run several things at the same time. The pump just sees a pressure tank as another load to take care of. So a larger tank actually makes it harder for a pump to supply multiple jobs at the same time.

The CSV1A in the Pside-Kick kit will vary the flow from 1 GPM to 12 GPM, matching exactly the amount you are using. This water goes right past the tank, straight to the shower or sink. The size of tank is not important, except that it has to be refilled before the pump can supply other things. So a large tank actually steals some of your water until it is full, then the CSV makes water go past the tank to the shower. The smaller the tank, the less water is stolen from your shower.

The CSV and Pside-Kick can easily be set higher or lower than 40/60 when needed. But you have plenty of pump to leave it at the factory setting of 40/60. I know you will like the increase in pressure, on top of the stronger feel of constant pressure.

A 12 GPM, Â¾ HP can only build 160 PSI back pressure, so almost any kind of pipe can easily handle that much. The CPVC will be after the CSV, so it will only see the 40/60 or what ever pressure you decide to set the Pside-Kick to work at.

LLigetfa · Dec 8, 2013

Residential plumbing components are designed to tolerate pressure to 80 PSI or more in some cases. 80 PSI is the max that one should strive for.

The black pipe from the well is most likely poly. Unless someone cheaped out and used the 80 PSI poly designed for sprinkler systems, most poly is rated for 160 PSI and 200 PSI is available.

As for pressure drop at the POU, that will depend on the plumbing and fixtures. Raising the pressure to 60 or 70 PSI would help to overcome flow losses through the plumbing and fixtures.

If the flow from the pump is inadequate, higher pressure will not compensate for it and will in fact reduce it.

Craigpump · Dec 8, 2013

The REAL problem you have is a very short run time on your pump because the tank is way too undersized. A tank that size will drastically shorten the life of the pump motor due to excessive cycling and it doesn't do much good for the bladder/diaphram in the tank either especially if the tank is indeed 30 yrs old.

sgl · Dec 8, 2013

I agree that my issue is short cycles. I am going to replace my tank, regardless, but in the mean time, today, I checked the pressure after draining the tank. It was 12psi. I put it up to 28psi, as I have a 30/50 switch. If in fact the tank only has about 5 usable gallons, then I am in a much better situation right now, or at least the pump is cycling less. Whether the tank loses the pressure, time will tell.

But the question still remains: should I replace with a new, bigger tank (space may be an issue)? If so, what size?

Or, would a pside-kick be a good solution? It seems to be a cheaper solution than a bigger tank, but I just don't know what to do. At least I have time, it's not like I don't have water, fortunately.

As always, thanks to everyone for offering advice. I appreciate it.

Valveman · Dec 8, 2013

Again, water comes from your pump, not the tank. Pressure tanks were not designed for water storage, as they only hold 5 to 25 gallons. They are only designed to slow down the pump cycling.

Before the CSV, using a pressure tank large enough for 1 minute of run time was required, and a tank large enough for 2 minutes of run time was considered better. With a 12 GPM pump, that would mean a minimum tank size of about 44 gallons for 1 minute and 80 gallons for 2 minutes of run time. Even with an 80 gallon size tank, you are not eliminating the cycling. You are only increasing your run time from the 30 seconds you get now to 2 minutes at best. A bigger tank also means you are at the low end of the pressure range for a longer period of time. The big pressure variation that you don’t think is “bothersome” now, that only takes 30 seconds or less, will be drawn out for 2 minutes or more with a big tank.

No mater what size tank you want to use, the CSV will completely eliminate the cycling while you are using more than 1 GPM. And since the CSV completely eliminates the cycling, you don’t need a very large pressure tank.

I know it is counter intuitive that a smaller tank will reduce cycling, but it is the CSV that eliminates the cycling, so the tank size is almost moot. There is just no reason to spend hard earned money for a large tank when the cycling problem has been fixed with a CSV.

sgl · Dec 9, 2013

valveman,

thanks for being patient and explaining things. i am finally starting to get the idea that the tank is just another water outlet, and that it's used to reduce cycling. i am obviously a novice when it comes to this stuff. i thought the pressure tank was required for, well, pressure. that that's what provided the strong flow of water, and not the pump.

before getting advice here, my take on things was to get a bigger tank, although i am space restricted, so getting a significantly bigger tank wasn't in the cards. plus, the price goes up seemingly exponentially based on tank size. if a constant pressure valve and small tank does what i need, and reduces cycling overall, then it sounds like a fit for me.

sgl

sgl · Dec 9, 2013

ok, so i am sold on the side-kick solution.

right now, i have the well pipe (black plastic, looks to be 1"), then connections to my tank, then to the house (3/4" cpvc).

the pside-kick looks like you can get different versions, with, say, plastic, stainless, bronze valves. and different flow rates.

what pside-kick version would be recommened for me?

and, as for connections, would I want to put in a new barbed-to [slip/threaded] fitting, then 1" pvc with a union, going to the pside-kick, and then cpvc with a union going to the house plumbing?

and, as for my water hammer, I read in multiple forum posts that i should remove the check valve that's now at the pressure tank, since the pump has a built-in check?

and as a final question, the pside-kick will work fine with my pump (3/4 HP 10GPM +/- based on water level, and 2-wires, no control box)? Just want to make sure.

thanks,

sgl

LLigetfa · Dec 9, 2013

sgl said:
and, as for my water hammer, I read in multiple forum posts that i should remove the check valve that's now at the pressure tank, since the pump has a built-in check?

The likely cause of water hammer is that the checkvalve in the pump is leaking down because there is no constant pressure against it to hold it closed. There is a small possibility that after you remove the topside checkvalve, the one on the pump still won't hold. In that case the proposed remedy is to pull the pump and install a checkvalve just above it.

sgl · Dec 9, 2013

if the pump is 50-70' down, that's not enough constant pressure to hold the valve closed?

i don't relish pulling the pump, but it's doable. would a check right above the pump, which either has a good check, or a leaky check, cause any problems? read that having multiple ones can cause issues where they open/close at different times, causing the problems.

sgl · Dec 9, 2013

i am thinking about this more.... no water hammer with the old pump that i replaced, which had a check just above pump. put new pump in, and now a hammer near the check next to the tank. but i *think* the hammer wasn't immediately after i put the new pump it, but started a little while afterwards. the check at the tank is the same. i didn't touch that one. does that make it more likely that the problem is the built-in check on the pump?

LLigetfa · Dec 9, 2013

It is generally the checks that are above the static water level that cause the most issues. When the bottom check doesn't hold, the water falls down toward the static level, pulling a partial vacuum.

As I said, the additional pressure against the bottom check may cause it to start to hold but then again it might not. You will know when you pull the topside check.

sgl · Dec 9, 2013

fair enough. at least i'll know what to do.

Valveman · Dec 9, 2013

sgl said:
ok, so i am sold on the side-kick solution.

right now, i have the well pipe (black plastic, looks to be 1"), then connections to my tank, then to the house (3/4" cpvc).

the pside-kick looks like you can get different versions, with, say, plastic, stainless, bronze valves. and different flow rates.

what pside-kick version would be recommened for me?

and, as for connections, would I want to put in a new barbed-to [slip/threaded] fitting, then 1" pvc with a union, going to the pside-kick, and then cpvc with a union going to the house plumbing?

and, as for my water hammer, I read in multiple forum posts that i should remove the check valve that's now at the pressure tank, since the pump has a built-in check?

and as a final question, the pside-kick will work fine with my pump (3/4 HP 10GPM +/- based on water level, and 2-wires, no control box)? Just want to make sure.

thanks,

sgl

The PK1A will have the dual threaded, adjustable, Stainless Steel CSV, with the multiple ports. You can use the 1” female ports on both ends. You will need a 1” barb to pipe adapter, with the long barbs if you can find it. I like to have room for 2) hose clamps when I can. The other side will need a 1” male pipe (NPT) X Â¾” female CPVC adapter.

There is a wall mount bracket included with lag bolts. But if you are going into block or concrete wall, you will need a couple of anchor bolts.

Remove the above ground check valve while you are at it. The 60 PSI it is holding on the tank will add the same as another 138’ of lift to the 70’ of lift you have in the well. The total of 208’ of head on the lower check valve will help it hold closed better than the 70’ it should be getting now. It only has to leak about 2 drops to cause the negative pressure problem that causes water hammer on pump start. And it doesn’t have to be the check valve that is leaking. Any fitting with a tiny drip can cause the pressure to go negative below a second check valve.

If the lower check or a fitting is leaking enough to make the pump come back on when it shouldn’t, it will need to be fixed. Placing a second check valve within a few inches of the one on the pump won’t cause a problem. You just want the replacement check valve as close to the pump as you can get it. Like with a 3” nipple or so.

Yes a Â¾ HP, 10 GPM series, lifting from 70’ will build about 110 PSI of backpressure. This will work great with the CSV1A set for 50 PSI with a 40/60 pressure switch. You will only have 110 PSI on the pipe and fittings prior to the CSV. Everything after the CSV will see from 40 to 60 PSI, and the CSV will hold a constant 50 while you are using water.

sgl · Dec 9, 2013

valveman said:
The PK1A will have the dual threaded, adjustable, Stainless Steel CSV, with the multiple ports. You can use the 1” female ports on both ends. You will need a 1” barb to pipe adapter, with the long barbs if you can find it. I like to have room for 2) hose clamps when I can. The other side will need a 1” male pipe (NPT) X Â¾” female CPVC adapter.

There is a wall mount bracket included with lag bolts. But if you are going into block or concrete wall, you will need a couple of anchor bolts.

Remove the above ground check valve while you are at it. The 60 PSI it is holding on the tank will add the same as another 138’ of lift to the 70’ of lift you have in the well. The total of 208’ of head on the lower check valve will help it hold closed better than the 70’ it should be getting now. It only has to leak about 2 drops to cause the negative pressure problem that causes water hammer on pump start. And it doesn’t have to be the check valve that is leaking. Any fitting with a tiny drip can cause the pressure to go negative below a second check valve.

If the lower check or a fitting is leaking enough to make the pump come back on when it shouldn’t, it will need to be fixed. Placing a second check valve within a few inches of the one on the pump won’t cause a problem. You just want the replacement check valve as close to the pump as you can get it. Like with a 3” nipple or so.

Yes a Â¾ HP, 10 GPM series, lifting from 70’ will build about 110 PSI of backpressure. This will work great with the CSV1A set for 50 PSI with a 40/60 pressure switch. You will only have 110 PSI on the pipe and fittings prior to the CSV. Everything after the CSV will see from 40 to 60 PSI, and the CSV will hold a constant 50 while you are using water.

ok. thanks for the information you provided. it's helpful. and answers all of my questions, except for one, which I didn't ask. maybe someone has mentioned it, but: what's the ideal # of pump cycles per day for a residential application? I.e. don't exceed x cycles, something along those lines?

Valveman · Dec 10, 2013

sgl said:
what's the ideal # of pump cycles per day for a residential application? I.e. don't exceed x cycles, something along those lines?

The ideal number of pump cycles is zero, but that is almost impossible. The maximum allowable cycles are 300 per day for pumps up to Â¾ HP, and 100 per day for pumps from 1 to 5 HP. Less than that number of cycles and the pump will usually last through the warranty period. A pump/motor only has so many cycles built in. So the fewer the number of cycles the better, and the longer the pump system will last.

sgl · Dec 10, 2013

valveman said:
The ideal number of pump cycles is zero, but that is almost impossible. The maximum allowable cycles are 300 per day for pumps up to Â¾ HP, and 100 per day for pumps from 1 to 5 HP. Less than that number of cycles and the pump will usually last through the warranty period. A pump/motor only has so many cycles built in. So the fewer the number of cycles the better, and the longer the pump system will last.

ok, thanks. those numbers are definitely good to know.

Bill Berry · Mar 22, 2017

Not sure whether to post this as a new question or place it here, but I bought the Pside-Kick Kit for a new well pump and I wanted to this right. The mounting kit for his has two clamps and a pair of lag bolts and nuts; one of the clamps is NOT threaded like the other and I need to replace it. The thing is who and where do I get the replacement part from. Any idea would be greatly appreciated; thank you!

Is a pside-kick right for me?

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