(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 22 of 22

Thread: 30 year old well system- complete replacement- pump, tank, etc.-nuts?

  1. #16
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Lubbock, Texas
    Posts
    4,156

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stoneaxe View Post
    It seems like a bigger tank would work to reduce cycling and have a bit more water on hand for the short power outages- usually we lose power for a couple of hours or so, so I don't bother to go start the generator. Good time to make coffee and sit quietly by the fire!
    20+ years ago I also thought a big tank was money well spent. But a big tank only “reduces” the cycling, it doesn’t stop cycling. So you still have to make sure any long term uses of water exactly match the output of the pump. You can’t run a garden hose or anything small for long periods of time without cycling the pump to death.

    A Cycle Stop Valve will completely “stop” the cycling as long as you are using more than 1 GPM. So with a CSV to stop the cycling, a big tank is a waste of money, space, heat, and a false sense of security if you are counting on having some storage when the power goes off. As LL said, a big tank will be almost empty when the power goes off as Murphy has control of things like that.

    A couple of 5 gallon jugs in the closet is the best way to be sure of having coffee and be able to flush a couple of times until the power comes back on. Your water comes from the well via the pump, not the tank. A pressure tank is designed to limit the cycling, not to store water.

    An 80 gallon tank looks big, but only holds about 20 gallons of water when completely full. But it could have as little as 1 gallon left in it at any time. If the tank only has 1 gallon left in it at the moment you shut off the shower handle, then 1 gallon is all the storage you have.

    However, adding a Cycle Stop Valve to a big tank system greatly improves the chances of the tank being full when you need it. With a CSV, the pump does not shut off until you are completely finished using water. So the pump runs for as long as you are in the shower. Only when you finally turn off the shower does the CSV top off the tank and the pump shuts off. In this way you can be sure the tank is completely full every time you stop using water. A CSV will always top off the tank before the pump shuts off, which gives you a much better chance of having 20 gallons in an 80 gallon size tank during a power outage.

  2. #17
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,679

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by valveman View Post
    A CSV will always top off the tank before the pump shuts off, which gives you a much better chance of having 20 gallons in an 80 gallon size tank during a power outage.
    Unless of course, someone draws off 19 gallons before the power is lost. Now, if you were to deploy a CSV along with a narrow range on the pressure switch as you proposed HERE, such as maybe 5 or 10 PSI spread and keep the precharge low, then you would have near constant pressure AND have a reserve of water albeit at lower pressure.

  3. #18
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Lubbock, Texas
    Posts
    4,156

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Unless of course, someone draws off 19 gallons before the power is lost. Now, if you were to deploy a CSV along with a narrow range on the pressure switch as you proposed HERE, such as maybe 5 or 10 PSI spread and keep the precharge low, then you would have near constant pressure AND have a reserve of water albeit at lower pressure.
    Sometimes I can’t see the forest for the trees. You are exactly right. All you need to do to guarantee there are many gallons of water stored in a pressure tank when you need it, is make sure the tank STAYS topped off.

    Maybe this is a better way to say it. Once the pump starts, the CSV won’t let it build to 60 PSI and shut off until you are completely finished using water. However, if sometime later you use small amounts of water that add up to 19 gallons, the tank could be depleted to 41 PSI, almost to the point of starting the pump again at 40, but not quite. Then when the power goes off, there is only a gallon or so left stored in the pressure tank. There is no power. So when you draw off a gallon or so of water, the pump doesn’t start at 40. Since there is 38 PSI of air pre-charged in the tank, the bladder hits the bottom at 38 PSI, and not another drop comes out of the tank.

    In the past, lowering the air pre-charge in the tank to about 25 PSI, was the only way to guarantee having a few gallons of water after a power outage. This decreases the actual draw down amount between the normal 40 and 60 PSI causing more pump cycling, and also over-stretches the bladder in the tank.

    However, if you use the CSV in combination with a large tank and a pressure switch with a 5 PSI bandwidth between on and off, the tank stays topped off. The CSV still makes sure you are completely finished using water before it lets the tank fill up to 60 PSI. An 80 gallon size tank will be completely full with 20 gallons of water when the pressure switch shuts off the pump at 60 PSI. But the next time water is used, only 5 gallons comes out of the tank as the pressure only drops to 55 PSI before the pressure switch restarts the pump.

    With a good producing well, you could set the CSV at 58 PSI. So as soon as the pump starts at 55 PSI, the tank is refilled to 58 PSI. At 58 PSI the CSV takes over and maintains 58 PSI constant for as long as the shower or anything else over 1 GPM is being used. When all water outlets are finally closed, the CSV continues to supply 1 GPM to top off the tank to 60 PSI, which takes about two minutes, and the pressure switch finally shuts off the pump. In this way you are only getting about 5 gallons of draw down from a big tank before the pump starts, but that is not a problem with a CSV, as it will work fine with tanks that hold as little as 1 gallon of water. What all this really does is make sure there is always at least 15 gallons of water stored in an 80 gallon pressure tank, even after a power outage. Icing on the cake is the almost perfect constant pressure in the house at all times. Even when the pump is off and you are getting water from the tank, the pressure will only be between 60 and 55 PSI. Then when the pump starts the CSV will maintain 58 PSI constant for as long as you are using water. The pressure will be so constant that you may not be able to tell if the pump is on or not. Sprinkles on top of the icing, is that the 15 gallons kept stored in the tank for emergency situations is replaced regularly which keeps it perfectly fresh at all times.

    With a weak producing well, you could do the same thing except set the CSV at 40 PSI. In this way the pump still starts at 55 PSI after you use the first 5 gallons out of the tank. But because it is set at 40 PSI, the CSV restricts the pump to 1 GPM like a 1 GPM Dole valve. As you continue to use water as with a 3 GPM shower, 1 GPM is now coming through the CSV from the pump, and 2 GPM are coming from the tank as the pressure continues to decrease. Seven more minutes into the shower the last of the 15 gallons in the tank is gone at 40 PSI. But with the CSV set at 40 PSI, it quickly opens up to 3 GPM to continue supplying the shower. The shower can then continue until all the stored water in the well is used up. If you have 50 gallons of water stored in the well, the shower will still have water for another 16 minutes before the well is dry. Of course then it would be important to have a Dry Well protector like the Cycle Sensor to shut off the pump before any damage from dry run occurs.

    I have narrowed the bandwidth of pressure switches many times for other reasons. Shortening the pump run time, maintaining as constant a pressure as possible, and staggering in multiple pumps to name a few. I just didn’t realize it was also utilizing a pressure tank as real storage, which can be very beneficial for weak wells or frequent power outages.

    Sometimes I just have to be hit by a tree to start looking at the forest. So I guess I am back to thinking a big pressure tank can be money well spent. If you have a weak well or frequent and short power outages, a big pressure tank, 5 PSI bandwidth pressure switch, and a CSV can make sure the tank stays topped off and full of fresh water.

  4. #19
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    SE Texas-Coastal
    Posts
    487

    Default

    Or, you could just use galv. tank like me.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist.

    Quote Originally Posted by valveman View Post
    Sometimes I canít see the forest for the trees. You are exactly right. All you need to do to guarantee there are many gallons of water stored in a pressure tank when you need it, is make sure the tank STAYS topped off.

    Maybe this is a better way to say it. Once the pump starts, the CSV wonít let it build to 60 PSI and shut off until you are completely finished using water. However, if sometime later you use small amounts of water that add up to 19 gallons, the tank could be depleted to 41 PSI, almost to the point of starting the pump again at 40, but not quite. Then when the power goes off, there is only a gallon or so left stored in the pressure tank. There is no power. So when you draw off a gallon or so of water, the pump doesnít start at 40. Since there is 38 PSI of air pre-charged in the tank, the bladder hits the bottom at 38 PSI, and not another drop comes out of the tank.

    In the past, lowering the air pre-charge in the tank to about 25 PSI, was the only way to guarantee having a few gallons of water after a power outage. This decreases the actual draw down amount between the normal 40 and 60 PSI causing more pump cycling, and also over-stretches the bladder in the tank.

    However, if you use the CSV in combination with a large tank and a pressure switch with a 5 PSI bandwidth between on and off, the tank stays topped off. The CSV still makes sure you are completely finished using water before it lets the tank fill up to 60 PSI. An 80 gallon size tank will be completely full with 20 gallons of water when the pressure switch shuts off the pump at 60 PSI. But the next time water is used, only 5 gallons comes out of the tank as the pressure only drops to 55 PSI before the pressure switch restarts the pump.

    With a good producing well, you could set the CSV at 58 PSI. So as soon as the pump starts at 55 PSI, the tank is refilled to 58 PSI. At 58 PSI the CSV takes over and maintains 58 PSI constant for as long as the shower or anything else over 1 GPM is being used. When all water outlets are finally closed, the CSV continues to supply 1 GPM to top off the tank to 60 PSI, which takes about two minutes, and the pressure switch finally shuts off the pump. In this way you are only getting about 5 gallons of draw down from a big tank before the pump starts, but that is not a problem with a CSV, as it will work fine with tanks that hold as little as 1 gallon of water. What all this really does is make sure there is always at least 15 gallons of water stored in an 80 gallon pressure tank, even after a power outage. Icing on the cake is the almost perfect constant pressure in the house at all times. Even when the pump is off and you are getting water from the tank, the pressure will only be between 60 and 55 PSI. Then when the pump starts the CSV will maintain 58 PSI constant for as long as you are using water. The pressure will be so constant that you may not be able to tell if the pump is on or not. Sprinkles on top of the icing, is that the 15 gallons kept stored in the tank for emergency situations is replaced regularly which keeps it perfectly fresh at all times.

    With a weak producing well, you could do the same thing except set the CSV at 40 PSI. In this way the pump still starts at 55 PSI after you use the first 5 gallons out of the tank. But because it is set at 40 PSI, the CSV restricts the pump to 1 GPM like a 1 GPM Dole valve. As you continue to use water as with a 3 GPM shower, 1 GPM is now coming through the CSV from the pump, and 2 GPM are coming from the tank as the pressure continues to decrease. Seven more minutes into the shower the last of the 15 gallons in the tank is gone at 40 PSI. But with the CSV set at 40 PSI, it quickly opens up to 3 GPM to continue supplying the shower. The shower can then continue until all the stored water in the well is used up. If you have 50 gallons of water stored in the well, the shower will still have water for another 16 minutes before the well is dry. Of course then it would be important to have a Dry Well protector like the Cycle Sensor to shut off the pump before any damage from dry run occurs.

    I have narrowed the bandwidth of pressure switches many times for other reasons. Shortening the pump run time, maintaining as constant a pressure as possible, and staggering in multiple pumps to name a few. I just didnít realize it was also utilizing a pressure tank as real storage, which can be very beneficial for weak wells or frequent power outages.

    Sometimes I just have to be hit by a tree to start looking at the forest. So I guess I am back to thinking a big pressure tank can be money well spent. If you have a weak well or frequent and short power outages, a big pressure tank, 5 PSI bandwidth pressure switch, and a CSV can make sure the tank stays topped off and full of fresh water.

  5. #20
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Lubbock, Texas
    Posts
    4,156

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Wellman View Post
    Or, you could just use galv. tank like me.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist.
    The same thing will work using a galvanized tank. We use Cycle Stop Valves with Galv tanks all the time. You just have to put the bleeder in a little deeper or use a compressor like a White Water to maintain the air ratio. The CSV doesn’t let the pump cycle as much, so you need more air in the pipe when it does, or use a compressor with probes.

    Just think how much stored water you would have in a Galv tank if you kept it topped off all the time.

  6. #21
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,679

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Wellman View Post
    Or, you could just use galv. tank like me.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist.
    Ja, those generally have additional drawdown below cut-in so long as you don't supercharge them with air. My Wellmate composite hydro-pneumatic tank uses a AVC that supercharges the tank to maximize drawdown. When the drawdown is exhausted, the air that's left will blast a glass right out of your hand.

  7. #22
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    SE Texas-Coastal
    Posts
    487

    Default

    You still supercharge them, not just all the way. An 82 gallon galv. tank has a natural 8 gallon draw down (30-50). When you supercharge it to about 1/2 water to air it has about a 20-25 gallon draw down. If the pump were to go out and the pressure was at 31.5 psi you would still be able to draw ~10 gallons out of the tank before you either ran out of air pressure or ran out of water. You would have to experiment to find the right mix.

    Some of our wells are naturally gassy so they are always supercharged (with air releases). Pulled some 30 year old pumps out of those wells.

Similar Threads

  1. Testing complete DWV system?
    By MushCreek in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-11-2013, 12:09 PM
  2. 53 Year Old Point Well, Pump Replacement Questions
    By mjkoester in forum Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 09-14-2011, 08:07 PM
  3. 4 Year Old Submersible Pump replacement
    By SETexas in forum Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-09-2011, 02:33 PM
  4. Need A Complete Heating System: Any Ideas?
    By richg in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-27-2009, 06:29 PM
  5. Complete System Drawing
    By BOB97423 in forum Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 07-18-2007, 10:58 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •