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Thread: Ionics 1030B is having issues installed around 2000

  1. #31
    DIY Junior Member KimbaWLion's Avatar
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    Well I was going to push for the 7000SXT anyway it IS newer and I would get a better flow rate. I know they can figure it out, but how much GAC do I need?
    I tried googling the sizing and did not find what I was looking for. The ones you see for sale give you a choice starting at .5CF on up.
    I was also interested in Vortech tank because of the lower amount of water in the backwash but I read some where you saw issues in the field.
    Either way I have to wait till Friday to call them and see what's going on. Then I can make my choices...
    I may NOT be the best guy BUT I am NOT the bad guy! -Coop from Megas XLR

  2. #32
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Less water during backwash? LOL, great marketing. I have seen a couple of failed lower plates which fills the house up with media. I have also seen a few dislodged distributor tubes, not a good thing. The vortech is also not available with the larger 32 mm manifold. The premise behind the vortech is great, and the lower shipping cost is nice since it does not use a gravel underbed. All that being said, a standard gravel underbed is just fine.

    Save your money, go with a regular tank with a gravel underbedding.

    For a regular house, I recommend no less than 1.5 Cu. ft. of GAC. A standard 10x54 tank will be just fine and it should cost the same as a smaller Vortech tank.

  3. #33
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Tank adapters for 2.5" x 16tpi SS tanks to industry standard 2.5" x 8tpi control valves.
    http://www.apwinc.com/tankadapters-ss.html

    ditto, do you sell to the end user/retail consumer?

    Also, how about telling us what the importance of the higher flow rate of a 7000 control valve is to the overall flow rate of a 1.5 or 2 cuft water softener.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  4. #34
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Too old of a discussion, it has been gone through too many times on this forum, please use the search function if you need to know that information.

  5. #35
    DIY Junior Member KimbaWLion's Avatar
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    WOW I googled ALL over for a link like that!!!! Just shows what a little experience can do! The people I am using to service my set up told me that they use them all the time. He may even have them in stock, though he said they really haven't used them much lately because they have little need now, but use to all the time with success. The person sent to my house was looking into getting me one vs a rebuilt since my valve is just about 14 years old. The manufacturer date on the valve is stamped 3/00. We talked about rebuilding vs. a new valve install because on the Ionics head you can see they are vertical instead of the standard horizontal. He said some scrap pieces of pex and some
    shark bytes would correct that really fast and make the GAC tank install much easier too, given the placement of the my water inlet... He knows money is really tight and he wants to fix me up, add the GAC tank and make
    everything work well for the least amount of money. If you read above about their service call you can see they are good people. (the same family since 1958 usually means good things!)

    As for the valve, sizing, and flow etc. As I stated above, my one shower has a lot going on depending on what gets turned on. I have a Grohe shower arm 2.5 gpm, A Grohe handheld at 2.5 gpm, a Grohe "sun flower" over head, AND I have 3 Grohe shower sprays. I am not saying they are all turned on at the same time but even with 2-3 are on that is some major flow... My master bath has a Jacuzzi whirlpool tub and we increased the inlet from 1/2" to a 3/4" valve.
    The inlet from the water meter is 3/4" and he told me bypass is a 3/4"one which would figure.

    I SHOULD have an answer from Ionics on what they will vs. will NOT do tomorrow. He told me IF possible to keep total cost down, which more probable now with that link, is keep the tank, re-bed it at Ionics expense, get a new valve with the adapter or rebuild mine and add the GAC.
    He is hoping Ionics will re-bed at their expense and I would pay for the new valve or a rebuild. He already told me my 2510 was a decent work horse valve and I may not really gain anything by switching either.

    The question is, even though the 7000 SXT IS newer a probably a better design, is optical etc. Do actually get performance gain? Do I get that much better flow that makes a difference, etc. etc.

    I am a civil engineer, want to know about bridges, roads and beams I AM your guy! I came here because I know a lot about a little and that can make me dangerous! I like having all my information BEFORE I call tomorrow and the people on this forum really have helped a lot. I know a LOT more than I use to, and that in itself can cause problems as it gives me too much information. Rebuild vs a new valve? I am already going to add more Resin than it originally came with so I can get more grains of handling than it had before and Ionics is stingy with it as it can handle more, but can't be a whole more since the highest regen is at gallons as set by the valve is 2100 gals, that alone may a reason to change it!

    @Gary Slusser and ditttohead The both of you have provided me valuable information that already has me thinking, your continued guidance is TRULY appreciated!
    I may NOT be the best guy BUT I am NOT the bad guy! -Coop from Megas XLR

  6. #36
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    A 1.5 or 2 Cu Ft tank will have a very slight flow advantage with the 7000 over the 2510 or 5600SXT, but this is slight, and you would probably never notice it. The optical positioning is simple and eliminates the old style micro-switches that are common on older valve designs. The mechanical micro-switches that Fleck use are basically bullet-proof, so longevity of either will be exceptional. You really cant go wrong with either the 2510SXT or the 7000SXT. I am not much of a fan of the 5600SXT anymore, it is far better than most, but it does not compare to the 2510 or 7000 series.

    The adapter works fine, but breakage has been a problem in the past. It is machined from BarStock PVC, as opposed to a molded glass filled Noryl or similar high tech plastic. I am sure someone will chime in telling me they sold thousands and they have never ever broke... sigh. The breakage issue was not overly common, but it was not unheard of either. Considering the cost, a new tank is probably cheaper and it eliminates the possibility of having that part break.

  7. #37
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimbaWLion View Post
    As for the valve, sizing, and flow etc. As I stated above, my one shower has a lot going on depending on what gets turned on. I have a Grohe shower arm 2.5 gpm, A Grohe handheld at 2.5 gpm, a Grohe "sun flower" over head, AND I have 3 Grohe shower sprays. I am not saying they are all turned on at the same time but even with 2-3 are on that is some major flow... My master bath has a Jacuzzi whirlpool tub and we increased the inlet from 1/2" to a 3/4" valve.
    The inlet from the water meter is 3/4" and he told me bypass is a 3/4"one which would figure.
    You have 3/4" main line to the softener? That is quite a lot of flow fed by a 3/4" pipe. Given the modest pipe size, the need for the 7000SXT increased flow is less compelling for the softener application. However, there is no down side at all to the larger valve and it has an excellent reputation. With respect to the GAC application the smaller 5600 is limited to 1.5 cu ft of carbon it can backwash due to flow restrictions. So I would definitely get a 7000SXT for the GAC tank (even if you do only use a 1.5 cu ft tank) because it is an excellent valve and doesn't limit you if you decide to change things down the road. You might even consider the small additional expense of getting the metered version of the 7000SXT (typically not used for GAC applications) because of added flexibility of use if you ever have to reconfigure your treatment setup.

    It does sound like the least expensive approach to the softener might be to rebuild the proprietary 2510 if you get a free re-bed and don't mind dealing with the maintenance annoyances that come with proprietary. Just keep a close eye on the softener cost. If it starts to approach $400 - $500 you can buy a whole new softener for a couple hundred more.
    Lifespeed

  8. #38
    DIY Junior Member KimbaWLion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    You have 3/4" main line to the softener? That is quite a lot of flow fed by a 3/4" pipe. Given the modest pipe size, the need for the 7000SXT increased flow is less compelling for the softener application. However, there is no down side at all to the larger valve and it has an excellent reputation. With respect to the GAC application the smaller 5600 is limited to 1.5 cu ft of carbon it can backwash due to flow restrictions. So I would definitely get a 7000SXT for the GAC tank (even if you do only use a 1.5 cu ft tank) because it is an excellent valve and doesn't limit you if you decide to change things down the road. You might even consider the small additional expense of getting the metered version of the 7000SXT (typically not used for GAC applications) because of added flexibility of use if you ever have to reconfigure your treatment setup.

    It does sound like the least expensive approach to the softener might be to rebuild the proprietary 2510 if you get a free re-bed and don't mind dealing with the maintenance annoyances that come with proprietary. Just keep a close eye on the softener cost. If it starts to approach $400 - $500 you can buy a whole new softener for a couple hundred more.
    I SO hear you there about cost! One thing to keep in mind is these people are REAL Ionics "servicers". The person selling the units to others let alone me was VERY shady and disappeared leaving a lot of people with no servicing. This outfit was getting TONS of service calls! One the owners, actually the guy who came out to my house, met the Official Ionics people at a trade show, they had a chat and Ionics agree to let them be official without selling the units as their name was getting TRASHED in my area because of the bad distributor. Also remember I can turn up my pressure to account for any pressure drops. I always thought I had a 1" feed but what did I know...

    They are also the ones that mentioned the adapter ring first with a new valve. He said the Ionics SS tanks are solidly built and he has never seen ANY fail. (mine is almost 14 years old and looks like the day they installed it!) He said they had used them for years and never had an issue. It all comes down to what Ionics will do for me! Should they cover the re-bed 100%, he told me I should just rebuild the 2510, he really likes that valve and for my particular needs, and it IS the cheapest way to go. Should I spend a little more and replace the valve the re-install is easy with some pex and shark bytes. He suggested the carbon tank since removing the chlorine enhances the life of the resin let along other pluses! I already showed him Online pricing so he knows I know ahead and how to price me. I have real world money concerns as he saw in the house because my wife is VERY ill and my medical bills even with decent insurance are quite high! He promised me they would do the best for me that they could and you know how you get a good feeling from people you meet sometimes, I have that feeling...
    As I said, he was not even going to charge me for cleaning out my injector and screen, as well as some other things. It is why I GAVE him a check for $100, it was the least I could do and it shows my good will and appreciation.

    I hope I get SOME good news from them tomorrow! Here's HOPING!
    I may NOT be the best guy BUT I am NOT the bad guy! -Coop from Megas XLR

  9. #39
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    3/4" copper pipe is rated for approximately 11 gpm, but it can flow over 20 GPM. The pipes will usually sing to you if you push them that hard.

    Sounds like your guy is doing very good for you. The Ionics valve is very good, the only problem with it is the proprietary nature of it.

    Ionics has been very careful to spec in only the highest quality components, including their stainless tanks. They are one of the few that we have seen almost no failures on. They do not go for the lowest bidder on their equipment, and the longevity of their systems shows.

    Even if Ionics doesnt do the resin, he can change the resin for you, it should be a fairly reasonable price to put in standard resin. You do not need the proprietary resin or medias, just standard resin will do just fine.

    Keep us updated!

  10. #40
    DIY Junior Member KimbaWLion's Avatar
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    Here is a story to go with Ionics and the bedding...

    Ionics offers a LIFETIME warranty on their resin (at leas when I bought mine), it has some super fancy name and has a lot of buzz words around it, bet most experienced people here know the nickel words around it etc.
    In order to PROVE it's THEIR resin they actually make the servicer take a sample and SEND it to them to prove it!

    I mean I have no idea about what tests they use to prove it to make sure its their's but I was told they have them and DO know when its theirs. Should it test to be their resin
    there is no problem. What my servicer is worried about is this dealer who I bought it from, was SOOO bad he was taking out the Ionics resin and using a cheaper grade sometimes. He has ALREADY SEEN THIS! He has even seen them NOT put in the gravel base too... I would have to call and complain and they usually give in since how could it be MY fault in the first place.

    What will happen either way is this. We worked this out so far to save me the most money. He is going to come and just pick up the tank while its on by pass, take it to his shop/store, get the sample and work on at a slower pace since it going to take at least a week or so to verify the resin. While he is waiting for the results he is going to look at the valve and make sure its worth fixing vs. a new one as he does have all the proprietary Ionics parts to fully rebuilt it. He told me sometimes long term Chlorine exposure sometimes erodes parts of the valve making it cheaper to replace vs. rebuild properly to spec. So that remains to be seen. As an engineer I LIKE new and shiny but if it gains me NOTHING then a rebuilt one for less works for me too.

    OH! 2 last questions:
    1. I have seen 20" inline GAC whole house filters. They say that the filters are good for up to 44,000 Gallons and they even include an Inlet and Outlet Pressure gauge to tell you when you have to change the filters. I guess the back washing sort STILL is better?

    2. I was reading on water on softenrparts.com that on tanks LESS than 12 inches in diameter they talk about the NOT putting in gravel etc. as it can cause movement issues with the distributer pipe. True/Not true? Makes no difference?

    Once again thanks for all the help its is TRULY appreciated, I SO wish I knew all this before...
    Last edited by KimbaWLion; 11-07-2013 at 07:50 PM. Reason: Added a 2nd question
    I may NOT be the best guy BUT I am NOT the bad guy! -Coop from Megas XLR

  11. #41
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Companies that are pushing the lowest price will forgo the gravel bed in order to save a few dollars and thus be $1 cheaper than the next online company. Then they will argue against all common sense about their poor reasoning. Do not buy from these types of companies that sell soley on being the cheapest. I have read the reasoning behind no gravel, and I doubt anybody on this site, or anyone with real field experience would agree with the no gravel idea. It is purely done to save shipping costs. A 12" tank uses 15-20 pounds of gravel, these companies are so desperate to be the lowest priced guys that they will say anything that justifies their saving $5. Just because they claim to have experience and they wrote it online, does not mean its true. They also claim that replacing resin is very difficult with a gravel underbed. Please check out this poorly done video (I have not had time to edit it yet). We filled a tank almost to the top with 1/4" gravel and proceeded to use a cheap extraction tool designed for resin removal to show how these simple tools will even extract 200 pounds of gravel in a couple minutes.



    BB 20" filters have less than 1/6 of a cu. ft. of GAC, the flow rate is approximately .5 GPM for actual functioning performance. The gallon rating is based on an estimate, a pressure gauge does not tell you anything about Carbon filters other than that they are clogged, it does not tell you anything about their actual chlorine, chemical., pesticides, organcis, etc removal. Do not waste your money on whole house BB unless you are desperately trying to save a few dollars and have extremely low water usage.

    Special resin that they test??? LOL, resin is cheap, it is not worth the effort to send it back to prove whos resin it is. The service tech should have just replaced the resin at a reasonable cost instead of taking back the system to his shop. The valve can be torn down in 2 minutes and inspected for damage. That valve body is easily inspected, the main damage will occur in the bore/piston area, and that can be easily seen once the piston and seals/spacers are removed.

    If you click on my link below, you will see a complete 7000 tear down, it is about as complex as that valve and takes about the same amount of time. It uses the same technology, and is simply a modern version of that valve.
    Last edited by ditttohead; 11-07-2013 at 09:46 PM.

  12. #42
    DIY Junior Member KimbaWLion's Avatar
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    Maybe so about the resin, and for the record I questioned that as it made ABSOLUTELY no sense to me, he said he knows its stupid but its their rules DUMB as they may be. But if Ionics approves it, I get a COMPLETELY FREE re-bedding and service call and that is what I am going for. He also said IF there was no gravel in there, there SHOULD have been and it would be included anyway, my question was more of a curiosity/information question for me. He said rebuilding the valve etc. is no big deal, just as you say, so I am on board with that. I can pay them a normal amount for the rebuild and just pay them for the GAC tank and install from them since they warranty their install and equipment and stand by it.

    I know a lot of this seems stupid to most here I get that, I REALLY do. Right now saving money is a REALLY big thing (remember medical bills and my daughter is in college too soooo), if can save a several hundred $$$$ and a few hours of my time with some minor aggravation that is what I am going to do. If it gets to be a real hassle and argument I'll do EVERYTHING myself and that will be that and I'll ask what FEW remaining questions I would have and I'll just do it. I have been armed enough with the proper information thanks to the people here and for that I am thankful.
    I may NOT be the best guy BUT I am NOT the bad guy! -Coop from Megas XLR

  13. #43
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Too old of a discussion, it has been gone through too many times on this forum, please use the search function if you need to know that information.
    That's what I thought you'd do so... NO you don't sell to the end user, you sell to plumbing supply houses, factory reps, maybe some dealers. In other words you are here telling people your experience with those people, not the softener etc. owners. IMO they BS and complain when many times what happened was caused by themselves or their employees. Like breaking the SS tank adapters by over tightening or allowing a tank to fall over and hit the valve and then blaming the product.

    Why are you calling the mineral extractor "cheap"?

    I'll ask again since you haven't corrected the serious error in your rebuild video of how to rebuild a Clack WS-1 and I see that you deleted my comment and stopped any comments.... how many Clack valves do you sell?

    I see now you are backing off from your comment about the 7000's 'superior' flow rate being of any benefit to a ordinary/common sized residential softener. See if you can teach Lifespeed to do the same. Also (although I doubt you will) how about explaining the importance of the constant service flow rate of resin in correctly sizing a softener.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #44
    Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek Mikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    cheap extraction tool designed for resin removal
    Where can I get one of these?

  15. #45
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Here is the manufacturer's site. This is for standard tanks and requires overhead clearance. Or lean the tank sufficiently to be able to insert it. Or take the tank outside etc. Or, there is a flexible shaft option for low head clearance such as in a basement etc..

    http://www.apwinc.com/extractor_high_flow.html
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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