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Thread: Commercial installation vs DIY (replacing existing IQ-0820 system)

  1. #31
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Ron... one more time. Tell me the number of holes, the number of pins, number of holes, number of pins etc. and nothing more. I.E. 5 holes, 6 pins, 30 holes, etc..

    Then, see if you can find a sticker that says .5gpm/1.5lbs/min by the drain line connection on the control valve and tell me what it says, and nothing more.

    Then I can tell you the salt dose lbs, and how close to your 12 gals of refill water you are.

    To see an animation of a softener's internal working, click this link...
    http://www.kenmorewater.com/ then Click Soft Water, Tank System, Process and then the Green right arrow until it goes away and then the Service Cycle + button.

    Your system doesn't work exactly like that but it's close. You have backwash, slow rinse/brine draw, Rinse, Refill. You don't get Pre Refill with softened water (they aren't showing a 2 hr pause after Refill), you have Post Refill (at the end of a Regeneration) with hard water.

    BTW, If you have a .5 gpm sticker, your 12 gallons of refill would be 18 lbs of salt per regeneration, which would be (as they say) turrible salt efficiency.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Ron... one more time. Tell me the number of holes, the number of pins, number of holes, number of pins etc. and nothing more. I.E. 5 holes, 6 pins, 30 holes, etc..

    Then, see if you can find a sticker that says .5gpm/1.5lbs/min by the drain line connection on the control valve and tell me what it says, and nothing more.

    Then I can tell you the salt dose lbs, and how close to your 12 gals of refill water you are.

    To see an animation of a softener's internal working, click this link...
    http://www.kenmorewater.com/ then Click Soft Water, Tank System, Process and then the Green right arrow until it goes away and then the Service Cycle + button.

    Your system doesn't work exactly like that but it's close. You have backwash, slow rinse/brine draw, Rinse, Refill. You don't get Pre Refill with softened water (they aren't showing a 2 hr pause after Refill), you have Post Refill (at the end of a Regeneration) with hard water.

    BTW, If you have a .5 gpm sticker, your 12 gallons of refill would be 18 lbs of salt per regeneration, which would be (as they say) turrible salt efficiency.
    Gary, Thanks - you are way ahead of me -- I was going to ask for help in attacking the salt concentration and efficiency business next now that we have determined that my controller may not be broken after all. Thanks for telling me specifically what you needed. I will try to get that information for you later tonight. ron in round rock

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Ron... one more time. Tell me the number of holes, the number of pins, number of holes, number of pins etc. and nothing more. I.E. 5 holes, 6 pins, 30 holes, etc..

    Then, see if you can find a sticker that says .5gpm/1.5lbs/min by the drain line connection on the control valve and tell me what it says, and nothing more.

    Then I can tell you the salt dose lbs, and how close to your 12 gals of refill water you are.
    Gary, thanks for helping with this. Yes-Yes-Yes, I found the stickers you have been asking about. It was where you said, at the joint where the brine line is connected to the control valve. But first, a confession (surprised you or someone didn't jump me about it). When I converted cu in to cu ft, I divided by 1278 instead of 1728. So 1" of water in an 18" tank is actually 1.1 gallons (not 1.5). So the Brine Draw is 8" of Fill water x 1.1 or about 9 gallons (not 12).

    So here are the things you asked for. The big white wheel has 83 holes (counting the "0" hole) and the numbers on it go from 0-164 (2 min / hole).
    0 - 10 6 pins
    12 - 70 30 holes
    72 - 82 6 pins
    84 - 112 15 holes
    114 - 116 2 pins
    118 - 164 24 holes

    The sticker on the brine hose connection says:
    .25 GPM
    .75 LB
    SALT/MIN.

    Brine Draw is approx. 9 gallons

    ron in round rock
    Last edited by rnsmithtldiy; 11-07-2013 at 07:18 PM. Reason: Fix Quote

  4. #34
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Ron... I don't care (it doesn't matter) how many inches of water you have in the salt tank and neither should you UNLESS you are never going to have any salt in it and just want unimportant stuff clogging yer thinkin'.

    Now Ron I luv ya'n all BUT I'm thinking ya just might be like an engineer'er something...... maybe it's just old guy me... tell me how to read "0 - 10 6 pins" when I said; Tell me the number of holes, the number of pins, number of holes, number of pins etc. and nothing more. I.E. 5 holes, 6 pins, 30 holes, etc.. Rethinking that... do not tell me, read below.

    Ya see, dumb me I read 0 - 10 as maybe 11 holes with 6 pins somewhere in the 11 holes. OR, 11 holes and then 6 pins.... maybe 0 - 10 is minutes... but then 0 - 10 @ 2 minutes/hole or pin would be 22 minutes and I didn't ask for minutes.

    So, now starting over, and at the first hole/pin (0), if there are no pins tell me, X holes, X pins, on and on until there are no more pins. I don't care or need to know how many holes after the last 2 pins, and you don't either.

    Your Refill is being done at .25gpm OR .75 lbs of salt per minute and probably during the last set of holes BEFORE the last 2 pins and nothing else like how many inches of water in an empty salt tank of whatever shape or size.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Ron... I don't care (it doesn't matter) how many inches of water you have in the salt tank and neither should you UNLESS you are never going to have any salt in it and just want unimportant stuff clogging yer thinkin'.

    Now Ron I luv ya'n all BUT I'm thinking ya just might be like an engineer'er something...... maybe it's just old guy me... tell me how to read "0 - 10 6 pins" when I said; Tell me the number of holes, the number of pins, number of holes, number of pins etc. and nothing more. I.E. 5 holes, 6 pins, 30 holes, etc.. Rethinking that... do not tell me, read below.

    Ya see, dumb me I read 0 - 10 as maybe 11 holes with 6 pins somewhere in the 11 holes. OR, 11 holes and then 6 pins.... maybe 0 - 10 is minutes... but then 0 - 10 @ 2 minutes/hole or pin would be 22 minutes and I didn't ask for minutes.

    So, now starting over, and at the first hole/pin (0), if there are no pins tell me, X holes, X pins, on and on until there are no more pins. I don't care or need to know how many holes after the last 2 pins, and you don't either.

    Your Refill is being done at .25gpm OR .75 lbs of salt per minute and probably during the last set of holes BEFORE the last 2 pins and nothing else like how many inches of water in an empty salt tank of whatever shape or size.
    OK, Gary -- sorry if that was confusing. I thought all of these dials were probably the same -- each hole/mark on the dial representing 2 minutes.

    OK, so here it is again, from the hole marked "0" on the dial (same pin/hole count without the numbers):

    no holes
    6 pins
    30 holes
    6 pins
    15 holes
    2 pins

    ron in round rock

  6. #36
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    OK, if I have it right, 12 minutes of backwash, then 60 for slow rinse/brine draw, then 12 for Rapid Rinse and 30 minutes for Refill, @ .25 gpm or 3/4 lb per minute. You get 3 lbs dissolved per gallon of refill.

    The salt dose depends on the K of capacity you have to regenerate. And that depends on the cuft volume of resin you have. Check out the Click Here link in my signature for more on that. You need a 24 hr reserve.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    OK, if I have it right, 12 minutes of backwash, then 60 for slow rinse/brine draw, then 12 for Rapid Rinse and 30 minutes for Refill, @ .25 gpm or 3/4 lb per minute. You get 3 lbs dissolved per gallon of refill.

    The salt dose depends on the K of capacity you have to regenerate. And that depends on the cuft volume of resin you have. Check out the Click Here link in my signature for more on that. You need a 24 hr reserve.
    Gary, Thanks. I understand the math.

    .25 gal/min x 30 min = 7.5 gal
    .75 lbs salt/min x 30 min = 22.5 lbs salt
    22.5 lbs salt / 7.5 gal = 3 lbs salt/gal

    I get everything except the .75 lbs salt/min -- when it is just water going back into the brine tank for 30 min (i.e. how did they come up with that particular figure -- i.e. could it have been anything other than .75 lbs salt/min). I think I am missing something.

    I know (I think anyway) it has to do with dissolution of the salt in the water (max dissolution or something like that).

    Anyway, let me study the information at your link more thoroughly (have already read through it a couple of times) and get back with a more specific question if I still have trouble understanding what is going on.

    ron in round rock

  8. #38
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Ron, a gallon of water can dissolve 3 lbs of salt; actually it's 2.7 lbs. but it is stated as 3 lbs. So if you add .25 gpm for X minutes you can calculate how many gallons of water and how many lbs of salt is dissolved into brine to be used each regeneration. It is what it is and as far as I know, it can't be any other way since your resin is sodium form resin.

    For your size softener it is using WAY too much salt. I, as I'm sure you do too, know that softeners work, so I suggest you quit trying to understand how it all works and simply set the thing up to do the best job it can regardless of how it does it and get on with life.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Ron, a gallon of water can dissolve 3 lbs of salt; actually it's 2.7 lbs. but it is stated as 3 lbs. So if you add .25 gpm for X minutes you can calculate how many gallons of water and how many lbs of salt is dissolved into brine to be used each regeneration. It is what it is and as far as I know, it can't be any other way since your resin is sodium form resin.

    For your size softener it is using WAY too much salt. I, as I'm sure you do too, know that softeners work, so I suggest you quit trying to understand how it all works and simply set the thing up to do the best job it can regardless of how it does it and get on with life.
    OK, I am getting closer, I guess.

    Regarding your comments, I guess going by the .25 gal/min Brine Fill rate x 30 minutes, I must have 7.5 gallons going into the Brine tank -- and at 3 lbs per gallon, that is 22.5 lbs of salt per Regeneration -- and that does sound like a lot. So what should it be. If the 3 lbs per gallon of water does not change, then I guess I should reduce the amount of water going into the Brine tank by shortening the Brine Fill Time -- which I now know how to do.

    So what would a good reasonable amount of gallons I should be allowing to go into the Brine tank.

    And sorry, but I don't want to quit trying to understand how everything works. As I just stated, I know how to program the various cycle times now, which was one of my complaints when I started this thread. And by the way, where does this 3 lbs per gallon of water come from. I assume it is some sort of maximum dissolution of salt in water, some sort of salt saturation formula or something like that. But to be honest, I have spent most of the day on the internet trying to find some sort of documentation on salt saturation and have been unsuccessful -- so can you or someone point me to a source for this information.

    Thanks. Learning and loving it. ron in round rock

  10. #40
    DIY Senior Member Reach4's Avatar
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    These should help regarding where the 3 lbs per gallon of water comes from:

    Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_chloride in the table...

    http://www.oocities.org/capecanavera...rate/nacl.html

    http://www.mrjgrom.com/source/matter...ilityChart.pdf
    Last edited by Reach4; 11-09-2013 at 03:42 PM.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reach4 View Post
    Reach4- Thanks for trying to help me out here. It is amazing that there isn't more of a layman's explanation about this subject (max salt saturation, how long to saturate, etc,). I have seen several references to 26% being the salt saturation point for salt in water, but it didn't/doesn't compute for me (i.e. water at 8.35 lbs / gal x 26% only gets me about 2.2 lbs of salt / gal).

    However, looking at the various sites you referenced, they are all rather consistent in giving the solubility of salt in water as around 357 mg/ml or 360 g/kg or 359 g/L -- which to me is 36%, which lines up with 3 lbs of salt per gallon of water everyone is using (8.35 lbs/gal x 36% = 3.006 lbs/gal).

    So where does the 26% come into play. I can get 26% if I take the max salt in a gal of water and divide by the beginning amount of water plus the added salt (i.e. 360 g / (1000 g + 360 g) = 26.4%). Is that what is going on with this 26% saturation of water -- or am I still missing something. ron in round rock

  12. #42
    Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek Mikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnsmithtldiy View Post
    I can get 26% if I take the max salt in a gal of water and divide by the beginning amount of water plus the added salt (i.e. 360 g / (1000 g + 360 g) = 26.4%). Is that what is going on with this 26% saturation of water -- or am I still missing something. ron in round rock
    I think you've got it. There are really two different questions being asked (or answered):
    1) How much salt does it take to make a saturated solution in 1 gallon water? (~3 lb.)
    2) What percentage (by weight) of a saturated salt solution is the salt? (~26%)

  13. #43
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnsmithtldiy View Post
    Regarding your comments, I guess going by the .25 gal/min Brine Fill rate x 30 minutes, I must have 7.5 gallons going into the Brine tank -- and at 3 lbs per gallon, that is 22.5 lbs of salt per Regeneration -- and that does sound like a lot. So what should it be.

    If the 3 lbs per gallon of water does not change, then I guess I should reduce the amount of water going into the Brine tank by shortening the Brine Fill Time -- which I now know how to do.

    So what would a good reasonable amount of gallons I should be allowing to go into the Brine tank.
    It, the number of minutes or lbs of salt, should be whatever is required to regenerate the K of capacity you need to produce the number of gallons/days of softened water for the service run (minus 1 day of reserve) that is best for your volume of resin. You learn about that at the sizing link in my signature.

    BTW, you don't want to change any settings on the pin wheel other than to set the correct salt dose minutes. And to do that you should unplug the control and take the wheel off (and to put it back on) the timer without bending the contact finger.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #44
    DIY Senior Member Reach4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnsmithtldiy View Post
    Reach4- Thanks for trying to help me out here. It is amazing that there isn't more of a layman's explanation about this subject (max salt saturation, how long to saturate, etc,). I have seen several references to 26% being the salt saturation point for salt in water, but it didn't/doesn't compute for me (i.e. water at 8.35 lbs / gal x 26% only gets me about 2.2 lbs of salt / gal).

    However, looking at the various sites you referenced, they are all rather consistent in giving the solubility of salt in water as around 357 mg/ml or 360 g/kg or 359 g/L -- which to me is 36%, which lines up with 3 lbs of salt per gallon of water everyone is using (8.35 lbs/gal x 36% = 3.006 lbs/gal).

    So where does the 26% come into play. I can get 26% if I take the max salt in a gal of water and divide by the beginning amount of water plus the added salt (i.e. 360 g / (1000 g + 360 g) = 26.4%). Is that what is going on with this 26% saturation of water -- or am I still missing something. ron in round rock
    Here is another number to throw into your math: the specific gravity of saturated brine is about 1.18. The implication is that if you add 2.7 pounds of salt to a gallon of water, you end up with more than a gallon of brine. As a physics/chemistry analysis, I think you will be able to find compatible numbers reconciling theory with accepted industry numbers. http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1984/0253/report.pdf has some info that you might find interesting. Your analysis can become that white paper that you were unable to find on the topic.

    From an operational point of view, you will do better with an empirical approach. Get yourself a good hardness test, such as the Hach 5B, you can try reducing the brine fill a bit, and monitor the hardness toward the end of the cycle. There are soap-based tests too, but the Hach 5B is better at giving you a 1-drop/grain titration. You can trigger a manual regen if hardness gets higher early. But this experiment will cancel out the variations of things like the resin, whether your system delivers 0.50 or 0.54 or 0.48 GPM during brine refill. So if you take on optimizing salt use vs effective softening, that measuring will be effective at tuning reality. Now that test will probably cost the same as maybe 250 pounds of salt, so the payoff may take a while. But it doubles as a cheap hobby. :-) Be glad you are not paying yourself by the hour.
    Last edited by Reach4; 11-10-2013 at 09:15 AM.

  15. #45
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnsmithtldiy View Post
    Reach4- Thanks for trying to help me out here. It is amazing that there isn't more of a layman's explanation about this subject (max salt saturation, how long to saturate, etc,). I have seen several references to 26% being the salt saturation point for salt in water, but it didn't/doesn't compute for me (i.e. water at 8.35 lbs / gal x 26% only gets me about 2.2 lbs of salt / gal).

    However, looking at the various sites you referenced, they are all rather consistent in giving the solubility of salt in water as around 357 mg/ml or 360 g/kg or 359 g/L -- which to me is 36%, which lines up with 3 lbs of salt per gallon of water everyone is using (8.35 lbs/gal x 36% = 3.006 lbs/gal).

    So where does the 26% come into play. I can get 26% if I take the max salt in a gal of water and divide by the beginning amount of water plus the added salt (i.e. 360 g / (1000 g + 360 g) = 26.4%). Is that what is going on with this 26% saturation of water -- or am I still missing something. ron in round rock
    Correct, and to get to 26% it usually takes 2 hours but in some environments it takes 3 hours after the refill water is added to the salt tank. That is important to only Pre Refilled softeners, meaning the first cycle position of a regeneration is Refill. Most softener control valves do not have that feature and are Post Refill, meaning the water for the next regeneration is added at the end of the previous regeneration and the water has at least 24 hours to dissolve the salt, or get to 26^ brine.

    Ron, when ya get done with the saturation thingy of the brine in the salt tank, ya should get into what it is in the drain line water during slow rinse/brine draw, that is what really matters to the successful regeneration of the resin.

    This saturation stuff yer into is kinda like the theory of flight. When I went to become a private pilot in my late 20s, they told me all about that theory. I didn't really care how it worked, or what metals the engine was made of or why, because since I was 4-5 years old (Mom said) I was always watching small private planes flying over our house as they took off from an airfield less than a mile from our house. I just accepted that planes flew, for whatever reason. As I grew older I'd lay in the back yard and watch contrails and try to see the plane creating them. Eventually I got binoculars for a birthday or Christmas. Then as high school was finished, I joined the USAF hoping to fly, which didn't happen except a few times as a passenger to/from a change of assignments. They thought nuclear weapon care, custody, maintenance and control was a better use of me than having me be a member of a flight crew. I did learn the theory and difference of fission and fusion though....
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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