Schluter Shower install - wicking issue

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Jadnashua

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Many tile (porcelain (except polished), glass, some stones) won't absorb any sealer, so it is often just for the grout. It does not prevent the grout from absorbing water, but does help it repel stains. Yes, it will bead up a little, but the grout will still get wet from repeated exposure. I seem to have lost my recommended list when I reprogrammed my phone, but I have used Stone Tech sealer on some absorbent granite that I liked the results. Most any sealer will say that you need to reapply...how long in between will depend on the conditions and the quality of the stuff, ranging from a year or less to 5 or more. A good sealer is not inexpensive, but the good thing is a little goes a long ways. My granite fabricator pays nearly $200/gallon for the stuff he uses. Smaller quantities are more/unit because of packaging. The biggest hassle with installing a sealer is if you let it dry on the tile surface...it can leave a really hard to remove haze...all that I've seen warn against letting that happen, and to buff off the excess before it dries. Usually, adding some more sealer, then buffing it off will dissolve what's there and remove the haze.

Good luck, and let us know how things work out.
 

KeithTerry

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I've had trouble posting to the site, so am finally getting back.

I re-kerdie'd one area that wicked the most. I did a 72 hour water test and there were no leaks, the water vapor test looked good. Art from Schluter was very helpful and responsive over prior weeks. After several discussions and photos, it did not sound like a visit was needed. however, I can see why a pro would use Ardex though for added insurance. I cannot find it for DIY, contractor only.

I'm starting 18x18 tiles now.
 

KeithTerry

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for the outside corner, I use a Kerdi outside corner (where the curb meets the wall). I note that because I qustioned if that joint was covered well.

my radiant floor ohms all checks out so that is good....whew!!! I goto the SunTouch model.

I got porcelain 18x18 tiles from a local tile store (Hamilton Parker) and had them make some 3" bullnose. I really wanted to make my own to get the best continuous look, but it looked like more than I wanted to take on. that's a benefit of having a pro with the right tools, I suspect they would get a better finished product....vs what I can do with my limited HD wet saw.

next question I'm goint to ask Schluter is if I can/should install the toilet flange over the ditra? I hadn't seen that mentioned anywhere yet. their answer is: should attach that directly to subfloor, so I'll be cutting out some ditra around that.

I am planning to use the schluter uncoupling membrane mortar and Tec uncoupling membrane mortar to install tiles. I've heard different things about materials to use. Schluter indicated this was fine with these tiles. lmk if you think I'm making an error with materials...

Schluter noted when mixing it should be mixed with correct amount of water, so I will weigh it out. anyway to validate by consistency of material if it is correct? they indicated (phone support) that it shouldn't roll out of the bucket. any wisdom on mixing the mortar, please let me know.

I'm dry fitting tiles now...HD Workhorse saw (cheapo) with a diamond blade is working, slowly, to my surprise.
 

Jadnashua

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The proper place for the toilet flange is on top of the finished floor, although lots of them are installed with it directly on the subfloor. You may need a jumbo wax ring or to stack two wax rings with it low...depends on the toilet and the thickness of the tile. NOt necessary if you put it where it's designed, one wax ring will be fine. It needs to be anchored securely, and should you decide to not put it on top, you'd attach it to the subflooring directly. It's often easier to use the tile saw to notch where the screws would go when mounting it on top of the finished floor, rather than trying to drill holes through the tile, but with the right diamond core bit (Lowes sells Hitachi brand, or lots of places online). Make sure that the hole is big enough so that the screw has some slop through the tile or the threads might crack the tile...obviously, the pilot hole through the subfloor needs to be smaller, but you don't want it too small through the tile. If the tile is set properly, and your hole isn't smaller than the screw, it has little chance of cracking a tile when anchoring the flange.

As to the proper mortar, to bond the Ditra to the subfloor, it needs to be a modified; to set the tile, it needs to be a dryset (unmodified). most manufacturers have a dryset mortar, and also sell a liquid modifier. If you go that route, you can just buy one mortar, and mix it with the modifier (per the instructions) for modified, and mix it with just water for the unmodified. This may help minimize waste rather than ending up with partial bags of two different thinsets. Or, no problem going with what you'd planned, either.

When setting the Ditra, pull back a section and verify that there's full coverage on both the floor and the fleece of the membrane. If not, there's either not enough thinset (shouldn't be a problem if you use the right sized trowel), or it is mixed too thick, or you waited too long to set the Ditra and it skinned over.

The difference in spreadability and consistency of thinset can change a lot depending on how it is mixed. A good paddle, mixed at the proper speed, the specified time really does make a difference. You might want to use a kitchen timer as judging time otherwise is not as reliable. Overworking it isn't helpful, either. Over speed, and it gets excess entrapped air, which isn't helpful.

Same idea when setting the tile...good idea to burn in a coat of thinset on the back of the tile before setting it. And, pull one off to verify full coverage, or you may not be getting it set well. Industry standards call for (ideally 100% coverage) all edges covered and at least 80% of the rest when on the floor. Try for the ideal.

Depending on the thinset and the tile, I've found that when burning in thinset to the back of some tile, it takes a couple of passes...when you then use the flat edge to scrape off everything, it should leave a thin coat that would have to be washed off - if it balls up, or doesn't cover, add more and press harder. Once it is fully burned into the back of the tile, and you've got a proper notch on the floor, set the tile by placing it down, a little bit away from where you want it, and then pushing it across the notches into position - this helps ensure full coverage as it flattens the notches, and works better than trying to press it down - full coverage of the thinset mating up with the thin burned layer on the back of the tile and its bond is tenacious. Check for level with the adjacent tile and adjust as necessary. Don't be afraid to pull it back up if you need to adjust the thinset or check for coverage. Slide the trowel or something under part way and pry/twist a little until the suction is broken, then it will come up. Once you get the hang of it, it can go fairly quickly.
 

KeithTerry

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Thanks for the feedback Jim. Good tip on notching the tile. When I called Schluter they recommended fastening to the subfloor and already cut the tile prior to reading your note. I'll just shim it up as much as I can and use two wax rings.

The mortar I have is unmodified Tec coupling membrane and Ditra which is what Schluter calls for over the kerdi/ditra.

Grout question. With Durrock walls with Kerdi and Kerdi base, where the wall joint meets the wall in the shower base can I grout that or do I have to use a matching caulk?

I'm close to setting some tiles on the floor.

2013-11-20 23.00.37.jpg

For edges and baseboards, instead of bullnose is there another way to do this? I don't have the wheel to cut bullnose and if I got the wheel not sure it would work on my Workhorse 7" saw. they make 6" blades, but it sounded like this was hard to do.

This project is a ton of work. been going now since June...part time. prob last til January.

Web site thought. the big Reply to Thread button is dangerous. I've accidentally clicked that after typing up a message instead of the "Post Quick Reply" and lost the message. May be good to put a warning on it if there is text typed in the box so msgs aren't lost.
 

Jadnashua

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You must use a modified thinset to anchor the Ditra to the wooden subfloor, but you need a dryset (unmodified) on top of it. I'm not sure what you have. If you have DitraSet, that's a great unmodified, but you can also use it for setting the Ditra to the floor IF you mix it with their liquid modifier rather than just water (follow the instructions carefully on the proper proportions).
 

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Thought I'd finish this post with the final results. here's the completed 8x4 shower.

20140414_215220.jpg

For review, I did the base layer with durarock, schluter kerdi kit the base/curb (foam kit) and the walls with the membrane. I had some wicking in the initial test. After much discussion I did a flood test over several days and it was good. 3 months of use and I don't see any problems, so looks good...whew...

Things I did right on the project:
* heated floor. for my cold ohio weather, it was essential in the winter. I used Suntouch and put it in myself. It took quite a bit of time as most things do.
* shower door
* hire someone to install the wall tile. I did the floor myself with the large tiles, and it was tough and took 8 hours+. but the walls took a professional a full week. I would have totally messed it up as he was constantly checking level, used a quality saw to cut the tile, and discovered issues prior to thin setting I would have been stuck with. My tile setter was so conscienscious he ended up cutting bullnose and took close to 2 days doing that. But it made a big difference in the edge looking nice vs what the tile shop cut which had a different color and edge to it. hire a professional (e.g. someone passionate about what they do, with plenty of experience...not an average joe). This is permanent stuff. My setter was Artistic Marble and Tile in Columbus Ohio.
* Grout a lighter color and have someone do this. for my area being small, in hindsight I'd choose a lighter tile, but it still looks good. I really didn't like the tile until it was grouted, then it all came together. again, my setter suggested the grout and did the grouting. It took him 5 hours to grout it at least. It was worth it to do it right and paid off.
* Pick materials carefully. Another reason I'd hire this out is the tile setter knows the materials and systems. But it doesn't hurt to do your homework so you know they are doing it right. so many places for mistakes in the system used, type of materials, quality of materials, age of materials, type of tile, type of grout, does it have a sealer in it, is the subfloor right, plumbing right, etc...
* Selected a tile that was anti slip - it is matted and so has traction...no problem slipping. again would be nice if lighter and shinier in the shower for better effect.
* Schulter membrane - appears to get the job done. after 3 months, I have no water issues below. but would that be true without the membrane and another system? have to check back in 10 years. for a first timer, was a lot of study and work to put up (but I do overanalyze everything honestly:). would be easy to poke a hole in this stuff by accident, mix your thinset wrong, wrong thinset, apply it wrong, etc.. I was careful and apparently got it right. There are other systems that sound good and maybe easier? Schluter is basically expensive plastic and membrane material, but a chunk of that is support...
Schluter Support - their support and technical contacts were very responsive to phone calls and email, always answered questions and were helpful. At the time I first called I wasn't able to get someone on site quickly and was bummed about that at the time. But they answered calls/emails. I would be very curious how well they stand behind the product post installation if there was a problem. there are soooo many things that can go wrong in the install that I suspect they could easily bail out of any issue due to install mistakes. Overall, you are paying for support, you need support, and it was good.
* Kerdi Fix - I got some of this to plug holes made by the contractor installing the tile. It pained me to see holes put holes in that membrane (they were up in the border), but I didn't see another way nor did installer. The kerdi fix is expensive, but it is different than caulk. appears to be good stuff....I hope so. who knows if urethane caulk would work as well, probably. I have almost a full tube if anyone would like to buy it:)
* Schluter Ditra - I put this on the floor to overkill in hopes to avoid issues. So far so good. Of everything, I liked this the best, it was easy but again requires careful selection of materials.
* Schluter foam pan - this worked well and I wouldn't have a problem using it. for my 155lb frame, I don't notice any issues with it 3 months in. worked well and was moderately easy to put in. Its tough once all installed, I'd be surprised if there was a structural issue with it. But I had to cut it down about a food and that messes up the slope on the edges, and nothing is square even after squaring it, so easy to mess up the cuts. I think if you have to cut very much off, I'd suggest getting one poured. It will work if you cut it, but the effect is your tile at the bottom is not even (dips in the middle). Not a big deal, but fyi.
* Put the nice, dual swinging shower door in by professional. they did a great job and it adds the finishing touch.

Things I'd change:
* I'd hire this job out and engage tile setter from the beginning. it would have been cheaper and better. I spent way too much time researching, buying materials, returning materials, looking at tile (quality, pattern, anti slip, porcelain/ceramic, all the extra pieces one needs, size). My tile setter had those skills and would have saved me a lot of life. This really is a "trade" and requires a lot of knowledge to do correctly.
* Tile size - not so sure, but I like the large tiles. but they were a bear to put up and took extra time.
* go curbless. who needs a curb to step over?
* When putting down the Suntouch heating system, I'd embed it in self leveling compound instead of a coating of thinset. It is easier to level that way (although note that may change if you go curbless, I havne't studied that yet).
* soap trays - I bought these rather than doing an inset. not sure if that was the right call, but I gave up after months of doing work and didn't want to do anymore substrate work or solve anymore problems. the trays work but I'd probably put them on the other side of the shower head, but that is preference.

Other comments:
* So far it is easy to maintain

I wrote a funny poem to remember the event, sometime I'll get it posted for all to enjoy:)

Thank you all who replied during my times of duress and confusion. The best advice was "Hire a Professional Tile Setter". Have I said hire this job out yet?
 

Jadnashua

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Congratulations...it turned out nice. Doing anything for the first time can be daunting.
 
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