I'll wait and see if the great John Bridge will show us his work. I think he likes more to take a shot and me every now and then. I would doubt he would post any pictures of his work here along side mine.
Thanks for the replies Jim and John. I was hoping there was some logical/scientific reason for the (alleged) 2 inches.
That's beautiful work John, I'm glad your B.C. inspectors are cooperative.
I have some friends that work in Hawaii and are very skilled bathroom builders. If you need a had with the renovation why not call By Design Builders. Ask for Michelle - she will get her man (Brian) out to have a look. They might offer up some local knowledge as well. I have sent them a few linear drains over the years for their projects in Hawaii.
Here is there contact info.
BY DESIGN Builders
Address: 840 Kupulau Dr, Kihei, HI 96753, United States
Just tell the people how long you've been in the tile business. I've got just over forty years now, and I don't know it all. I've learned, though, that it's not productive to relentlessly run down other craftsmen. At the John Bridge Forums we strive constantly to better ourselves instead.
John Bridge, Ceramic Tile Setter :-)
Sell your e-books John. Leave the curbless shower construction for the younger men - go drive around in your Win-A-Bagel and post some pictures of some showers you did some ten years ago. Stay tuned here on Terry's site and you can see the work I do. I post it all.
Last edited by johnfrwhipple; 09-27-2013 at 07:34 AM.
My local plumbing inspectors like the showers we have been building and I have been asked a couple times for my card. I take that as a huge complement when an inspector asks me for my business card for a friend.
What I find the common theme with the inspectors is that they have the home-owners best interest at heart. If you want to build a low curb or no curb shower you need to be able to address the questions asked of you. Many times inspectors ask me for a cross section of my plan. These are simple steps and not road blocks. If you don't have a solid plan, know how to grade it and have an approved system to do it you will get a big NO - but if you do know what your doing, can debate and argue with the inspector, be flexible if need be and it also meets electrical codes then you should be good to go.
Here is a couple more pictures of a nice custom barrier free shower here in Dunbar Area of Vancouver. This is a 2.5 million dollar custom home where I was brought in to prepare the showers for tile. We worked on these showers over multiple months and came back to the house durning framing stages to make some upgrades to the floor joists to stiffen up the floors.
This home received a 1.5" concrete pour to encapsulate the floor heating. We blocked off he shower so the plumber would not run pipe in the shower space and used this 1.5" height difference to build our shower. We did a second one on the floor below but it was to small a space to take any good pictures.
As well as being a barrier free shower this shower is also a steam shower.
Last New Years we did this four day flood test of a Coquitlam curbless shower. The waterproofing is Kerdi DS
The information on John Bridge's site does not just get recycled there round and round many of John Bridge's top posters (Like our friend Jim here) repeat this advice on multiple other forums around the internet. The same brain sharing garbage advice and then spreading it like a disease. If you live in a state still following the IRC then yes you have codes in place to block you - NOT STOP YOU.
If you live in a state that follows the UBC (Universal Building Code) or live in Canada there are no codes to restrict you. Just because some grumpy old guy that plays with Owls says its code and the mindless sheep repeat this as fact does not make it so.
Look at all these curbless showers - ask yourself how these are being built in new homes (UNDER INSPECTIONS) if there was a code in place....
Lets wait and see if the great tiler of forty years has any kind of response or if he shares any of his work with this group. I doubt it. John Bridge set tile years ago. Now he sells advertising and ebooks. There are many people I think that believe that John Bridge's first Book was sponsored by Schluter Systems. I believe this and have never been impressed with John Bridge's advice online. His forum is far from friendly - I know many people who have been banned from posting their beliefs - over on the John Bridge forum you better push the products online that appear in the sponsor side bars or you will meet with resistance .
Terry lets the action unfold - line by line.
I'm calling out John Bridge as paid promoter. I can not prove this of course but it is what I believe to be true. Since I have seen so much poor advice over their and because they often deleted or move posts I feel the John Bridge Forum is also censored - no good comes from this , unless of course you are paid to promote certain products which I'm sure is the case. So - as an average homeowner looking for answers where do you turn?
To City Hall of course. Go find out yourself what the codes are.
Go to your public library - most have reference books you can study and copy pages. Here in North Vancouver our new library on Lonsdale has the new code books to view. So does down town.
Do not listen to a bunch of old men talking about the glory days. get your advice from people who do this for a living, from the inspectors - and what ever advice you get make sure you double check it.
One more time John Bridge - oh yea great setter of forty years. Lets see your work. I bet you don't post it along side mine - here.
If anyone picks up on my severe hatred to this forum and this man - it's for a good reason. I don't like John Bridge or his forum. I hate censorship. John Bridge shows a Vortex Fold in his E-Book and CX (the owner of the John Bridge Forum I Think) calls it Magic. I call it a trick - one that uses static electricity to achieve the stunt. If you are ever going to meet John Bridge or a Schluter rep ask them to show your the Vortex Fold.
Here is a link to the post by John Bridge : http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...t=31575&page=2
Last edited by johnfrwhipple; 09-27-2013 at 07:26 AM.
Well I guess Mr. John Bridge is not going to share with us his curbless showers. So sad.
I'll dig up what I can find and place a few links here for you all to discuss. Perhaps you want a 2" drop or a Speed Bump in your bathroom. Maybe you won't trip or slip on this ugly feature. Maybe you prefer following advice that is the same crappy advice recycled round and round. Or perhaps your just researching - that is best.
If you have built a curbless shower with a 2" drop or a crazy speed bump and you did not go to city hall and then later read that it was not necessary I think you are going to be really pissed off that you did not double check all the facts.
Here is a photo of John Bridge's Speed Bump Design
Pretty sure there is a code (shower grading code TCNA & TTMAC) that requires no slope be greater than 1/2" per foot.
I think this is John Bridge's one and only curbless shower build. I might be wrong but I can find no other examples. And if memory serves me correctly this shower was not flood tested. I believe somewhere John Bridge writes that he only did three or four flood tests with Kerdi in his career. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that is what he writes somewhere online. We will flood test three this month.
Last edited by johnfrwhipple; 10-02-2013 at 07:50 AM.
Last Weekend I took my class from Vancouver Community College (NKBA Construction Class - bath design) to our local downtown library. Here you can either borrow the building code books or view them from the computer terminals.
In our BC Building Codes, Our Canadian Building Codes and our Plumbing Codes there is no reference to a 2" drop. All these resources are free and you only need visit the local library to view a copy. These are simple steps to ensure you follow the current guidelines.
I have pushed these limits in the past - I have tried to build showers that have in fact not worked as designed. Experience has taught me that a drop of 5/8" is the least you should allow. Experience has taught me that some inspectors will require a 1" water height (INISDE the Wet Zone) when dammed - but this is for me only an Urban Legend since not once has the inspection or request to view it been asked.
When flood testing a curbless shower you should flood test the corners which will require a temporary dam - Inspectors love this.
John Bridge's forum is full of the retired setters of glory days long gone. Most of the men posting on his site don't in fact build any curbless showers. Yet the same garbage advice goes round and round.
Most times a curbless shower design will get "POO POOED" by planning - yes Poo Poo is a technical term. It is step one in the process. Step two is asking why.
Could be the electrical layout in the room is wrong.
Could be the inspector has seen a dozen failures and will not allow it - truth be told he can not stop you!
Here in Vancouver I would be more than happy to help anyone design their curbless shower space. I include one hour of design with every drain order (ACO) only and this can at least get you going on the right track. I help people around the world with this. This morning it's a job in Hawaii with an ACO drain and a California Hot Mop. Last month a few showers in California. Month before that a job in Kelowna.
As I have said dozens of times before - Double Check all construction advice you find online first - call city hall - look up the codes. The internet is full of Arm Chair Builders - guys who don't work in the business.
I'm sure Jim will have a thought here - come to the aid of his mentor Mr. Bridge. But like John Bridge I'm sure - I would bet Jim has never even worked on an inspected job and his experience most likely from a few shower renos over the years. Those like his posts here a hobby - something to do in his golden years. When your looking for info on the proper drain height for your curbless shower in Canada or the US - the answers are all at city hall or your local library. Take the kids - make an adventure out of it.
Last edited by johnfrwhipple; 10-11-2013 at 07:55 AM.
In your planning stage of a barrier free shower you should plan to be able to dam the shower and hold 1" of water above the drain top before water exits the shower. This is ideal but not required.
Ideally from the edge of the shower to the dry zone you have 5/8" of height change for safety.
Planning the floor's grading is the hardest part. Using the numbers above as fixed points can help you narrow down a design that will work. Here is my current barrier free shower build as of yesterday.
I drew in some grading arrows to show the pitch of the floor so far.
At the entry to this shower (28" panel left - 28" door - 4" panel right) the shower's grading is angled of course. Tying in the dry side of the shower to the wet side is the hard part. I designed this shower so that 4" outside the glass the tile will fall into the shower. A slight roll with the small mosaic tile.
Here is a closer look at this detail. Trying to get all this done in one go was to much math for me so I first set the shower and then set the outside. The next day I worked on the roll in and did some minor retooling of the floor to check for any hollows or humps.
Before the grading starts I like to work out all my slopes. To do this I pick a few fixed points and the end of the shower back wall is one of those fixed points. I worked out all my grading prior to installing the Nu-Heat cable system in case there was a major design flaw. The grading was tricky and hard since the room has so many angles and two doors. But not impossible.
A hot glue gun and some 1/16" shims really help with the planning and grading steps.
Last edited by johnfrwhipple; 11-30-2013 at 08:59 AM.