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Thread: What to do with wires when installing light switches/plugs

  1. #31
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerlane View Post
    That could be a conclusion one could make.
    It is the conclusion that those charged with the testing process has come up with and I feel that they are a lot more equipment to make that conclusion that any contractor. A decision to do different is not a conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerlane View Post
    In my opinion the conductor termination at the left is more secure.
    We all have a right to have an opinion but to make a statement based on opinion and not facts is an out of place statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerlane View Post
    If you want to have your guys secure the termination like on the right go with it. It does save a few minutes.
    We are not discussing what either of us might do during an installation what we are discussing is the statement you made;
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerlane View Post
    Push in connector not good?
    This statement is based on opinion and not fact as the facts (third party listing) speaks that this is a perfectly good method.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    I have seen that when the wire release is used, then the tension on the connector will not hold the wire properly. It is a 1 use release for the most part.
    This is true they are a onetime use device.



    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    The saving of time is not worth the problems. And I do not trust them when I overload the outlet with a space heater, that is also UL listed.
    There are no problems when done correctly. The major issue if improper installation practices. Just as with any thing, not installing it properly means that it will not last very long.
    Go back and look at post 16 the second picture on the left from the top and see where the blade detention slot will fail from an overload. Be sure to examine just how the blade of the end cap inserts into the receptacle and tell me what the difference is between the blade detention and the wire detention parts of the receptacle.

  2. #32
    DIY Senior Member Hammerlane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post

    We are not discussing what either of us might do during an installation what we are discussing is the statement you made; This statement is based on opinion and not fact as the facts (third party listing) speaks that this is a perfectly good method.
    I didnt make a statement in my post #16. I asked a question. Hence the question mark at the end of the line.

    Either way back stabbled connections are not used as a wiring method by me. You live and learn.

    I understand your comment about a proper installation though.
    Last edited by Hammerlane; 09-19-2013 at 10:54 AM.

  3. #33
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    You make three post titled not good, better, best along with your comments of how you are able to retire on what you have earned replacing back stabbed receptacles and would never allowed it to be done by your company so what is one to think?

    If you don’t like one installation as compared to another I don’t have a problem but when someone starts trashing one method over the other and both are approved methods then they had better be ready to back their statements because I am coming. I will be holding in my arsinel the reports from the third party testing lab which will trump any and all war stories of how many anyone has ever replaced without finding out why it failed. Just saying that it failed is nothing more than saying I just don’t what caused the failure but it failed.

    (Him) Poor ole camel was standing there just fine when someone laid a straw on his back and then he collapsed.
    (Her) Pray tell us all, just what else was on that camel’s back.
    (Him) Oh I don’t know maybe all the straws he could carry!!!!
    (Her) So we are surprised that one more than he was able to carry broke the poor ole animal down?

    The stab-loc method is just as good, just as safe, and just as reliable as any other method when done properly. Neither method is good, safe, or reliable when the device is used outside its limits.

    It’s all just a personal preference.

  4. #34
    Sprinkler Guy Wet_Boots's Avatar
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    Are "spec grade" devices still produced? Don't they lack the back-wiring option?

  5. #35
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    The commercial rated ones I've used recently did not have a stab-loc capability...they did have holes in the back but they were then clamped in place by the screw tension.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  6. #36
    DIY Senior Member Hammerlane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    If you don’t like one installation as compared to another I don’t have a problem but when someone starts trashing one method over the other and both are approved methods then they had better be ready to back their statements because I am coming.
    No report is going to convince me that the backstab method is as secure as a side wired one.

    With all due respect, I will take field experience over an arsenal of reports written by a desk-jockey at 3rd party testing lab.

    I will provide the comparison one more time.


    ***IT'S HARD TO SOAR LIKE AN EAGLE WHEN YOU'RE FLYING WITH TURKEYS***
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  7. #37
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    The commercial rated ones I've used recently did not have a stab-loc capability...they did have holes in the back but they were then clamped in place by the screw tension.
    If every time I found one of this type of receptacle that was not tightened enough to hold the conductor I posted that this was an inferior method then it wouldn’t be long before everyone in this nation would be against these as bad as the stab-loc but alas no one is up to posting just how many failures they find on sloppy workmanship although most of the failed stab-loc is due to poor workmanship.

  8. #38
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerlane View Post
    No report is going to convince me that the backstab method is as secure as a side wired one.
    This is one of the problems in the electrical trade today. Poor ole electricians have become smarter than those that have the responsibility of writhing the codes and testing the equipment that we use everyday.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerlane View Post
    With all due respect, I will take field experience over an arsenal of reports written by a desk-jockey at 3rd party testing lab.
    Yes this is what we all should do is rely on improper installations, short cut methods and the like over the trained professionals that test this stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerlane View Post
    I will provide the comparison one more time.
    Let me see if I understand your comparison. In your personal opinion one is better than the other so we are supposed to go along with your opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerlane View Post
    ***IT'S HARD TO SOAR LIKE AN EAGLE WHEN YOU'RE FLYING WITH TURKEYS***
    Do you know that Ben Franklin wanted the smartest bird in the world the turkey to be our national bird

  9. #39
    DIY Senior Member bluebinky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    ...Yes this is what we all should do is rely on improper installations, short cut methods and the like over the trained professionals that test this stuff...
    I think there is a lot of merit to that statement. However, how can I be sure I'm not doing it wrong too? I mean, like should I push slower or something?
    I'm not much of an electrician, but as an "engineer" I would like to point out that anyone who looks at results from only "field experience" or "lab tests" in isolation is missing out. You need to look at both and then figure out all the discrepancies.
    That said, I always assumed that the few stabbed failures I've seen (vs no screwed failures) are due to the "stabbers" using $.50 junk and the "screwers" using $2.00 quality parts. The key word here being "assume"!

  10. #40
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Use the strip gauge.

    If you are not sure if you are doing it right, then you should not be doing it.


    Do what You know how, or get someone to show you.


    Have fun.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  11. #41
    DIY Senior Member Hammerlane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Let me see if I understand your comparison. In your personal opinion one is better than the other so we are supposed to go along with your opinion.
    Not at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Do you know that Ben Franklin wanted the smartest bird in the world the turkey to be our national bird
    This is a true statement. Had to laugh at that comeback!! Touché

  12. #42
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Having been in this trade for many years I have found that poor workmanship is the cause of many failures. I have seen the top end devices that had failures due to someone not tightening the screw down tight enough to hold the conductor in place. I have seen the conductor stripped out to much and the equipment grounding conductor fault out the device. I have seen the insulation not stripped out enough and have arcing between the conductor and the device to the point of failure.

    What I have never seen in almost 50 years of experience is a stab-loc failure when installed per the instructions that come with the device and the device not overloaded.

    My point being is that any installation that is not done in a good workmanship manner will fail no matter how much is spent on the device or what method is being used to terminate the conductor. If done properly the stab-loc is just as good as any other method. The wrapping of the screw is bad if not done properly.

    A #14 conductor has a area of .0097 square inches. Wrapping the conductor around the screw does not give more area for the conductor to contact the dev ice as the maximum current carrying area is limited to the area of the conductor.
    In other words as long as .0097 square inches of conductor is in contact with the device the maximum amount of current that the conductor can carry is flowing to that device and wrapping the conductor around the screw in no way allows more current to flow through the conductor

  13. #43
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    A #14 conductor has a area of .0097 square inches.

    Do Watt ?.......
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  14. #44
    DIY Senior Member Hammerlane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    A #14 conductor has a area of .0097 square inches.
    I say 0.0032 sq inches. The radius of 14AWG is 0.03205

    So (0.0032 in) x (0.0032 in) x (3.1416) is 0.0032 sq inches

    Lets say math may not be your strongpoint.

  15. #45
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerlane View Post
    I say 0.0032 sq inches. The radius of 14AWG is 0.03205

    So (0.0032 in) x (0.0032 in) x (3.1416) is 0.0032 sq inches

    Lets say math may not be your strongpoint.


    LOL, are you allowed to say that ?
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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