3-way, dual timer switch wiring

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JWelectric

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Once again I answer you question but your seem to just want to steer around the answer so this is the last time I answer your question.

You MUST install a set of three ways one at the top and one at the bottom of the stairwell.
They CANNOT be installed in a manner where someone would be stranded on the stairwell in the dark and this is just what timers will end up causing to happen.
Should you decide to install automatic controls for the stairs the automatic control CANNOT strand someone on the stairs in the dark so timers are not allowed period.
Along with the electrical code there are building and fire codes that MUST be adhered with. In both you will find that no one can be stranded in the dark on a set of stairs.
Think about your self when you get old, you will not want to be on a set of stairs in the dark.

If you are having such a problem with your tenant then evict them.
 

MTcummins

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Ok, so whether JW decides to respond or not, let me see if I have this straight.

If I put an occupancy sensor on the stairs with NO switches, the exception allows for this b/c they're automatically controlled and the switches aren't required due to the exception to A)(2)(a,b,c). If I use that same occupancy sensor, and add an additional measure of protection in parallel to allow a tenant to override the occupancy sensor only in a manner to turn the lights on beyond what the occupancy sensor would, this somehow breaks the code?

How is it that I'm dodging your answer here, your answer doesn't fit the code you've copied me.

Where does the code require a pair of 3-pole switches - it says nothing of that manner in the code you've copied. If there was no remote, central, or automatic controls, then yes, the only way to meet the code requirement would be with a pair of 3-pole switches. Once you have met the exception, where do you find that you must also fulfill what the exception is excepting? And how is that logical in any way?
 

JWelectric

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Ok, so whether JW decides to respond or not, let me see if I have this straight.
If I put an occupancy sensor on the stairs with NO switches, the exception allows for this b/c they're automatically controlled and the switches aren't required due to the exception to A)(2)(a,b,c). If I use that same occupancy sensor, and add an additional measure of protection in parallel to allow a tenant to override the occupancy sensor only in a manner to turn the lights on beyond what the occupancy sensor would, this somehow breaks the code?
Not as long as the additional measure is nothing more than a set of three way switches.
Timers are not allowed by the building and fire codes and should you bare head strong in your installation of timers then you could end up with a law suit.
 

DonL

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I am not really up on the code for all locations.

I do know in my area a Single occupancy is treated differently than a Multiple occupancy, Or rental.

Some require a Inspection, some do not. You are responsible either way, If you install any electrical something.

Some even require Emergency lighting and Exit signs.

Don't forget the Handicap access.


Have Fun.
 

MTcummins

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Sorry JW, if I seem stubborn, or like I just don't want to listen. Its not that I just want to do whatever I want to do regardless of the code, its that I don't generally like to just take someone's word for it - I want to be SHOWN why. I still haven't seen anything that shows me that the code prohibits my idea. I want to learn, not just get a solution to one individual problem.

Don, generally 1 and 2 unit buildings are treated about the same for code. Some things are a little different as far as permits/inspections/etc if its owner occupied vs investment, but not much is different. Then there are a few additional requirements for 3/4 units. 5 units and above moves into commercial code rather than residential, and is typically when things like emergency lighting, exit signs, etc become mandatory. I believe all of the above is the basic national code, but local munis may choose to add on to this to make it stricter. Handicap access is def not required for existing structures of this type, unless you get into some really serious reconstruction, and even then you probably wouldn't need it for existing residential buildings.
 

JWelectric

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I do not have access to the IBC or IFC that I can copy and paste from but they can be accessed at the ICC web site.

If you would only sit still for a couple of minutes and think you could understand that timers are not allowed on a stairwell simply because they can time out while someone in on the stairs. Think about just how much good a light on a stair would be if it was off.

With a sensor the timers wouldn't be needed as if no one is present the lights won't be on.

As an electrical inspector in the state of NC I will require that a light have a manual override to an occupancy sensors as outlined in exception 2 to .70(A)(1).
The exception to (A)(2)(c) says remote, central, or automatic control and timers are not either of these as a timer will not turn on all by itself.

If you will not think about anything else think about the EMT personal that might be trying to get you out of the house and save your life being on the stairs with you in tow when it goes dark. Lord forgive me think about all those starved to death pigmies in New Genie Get er done.
 

Jadnashua

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You can manually have a means to turn the lights on and an automatic one is likely acceptable, but anything that turns the lights off automatically while there is still possibly a person in the stairway (such as a timer) isn't allowed. If the things were wired such that the occupancy sensor would override the timers, and keep the lights on if there was someone in the stairway, it might still pass. But, if you were going to use occupancy sensors, most of those already have an adjustable timer built-in after no further motion was detected, so separate timer switches would be redundant. Depending on the layout of the stairway, if there are any turns, multiple occupancy sensors may be required, and finding those is possible, but ups the costs. Might just be easier to take the suggestion of using LED bulbs and leave the original switches...probably end up costing less, even if they leave the silly things on!
 

DonL

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You can manually have a means to turn the lights on and an automatic one is likely acceptable, but anything that turns the lights off automatically while there is still possibly a person in the stairway (such as a timer) isn't allowed. If the things were wired such that the occupancy sensor would override the timers, and keep the lights on if there was someone in the stairway, it might still pass. But, if you were going to use occupancy sensors, most of those already have an adjustable timer built-in after no further motion was detected, so separate timer switches would be redundant. Depending on the layout of the stairway, if there are any turns, multiple occupancy sensors may be required, and finding those is possible, but ups the costs. Might just be easier to take the suggestion of using LED bulbs and leave the original switches...probably end up costing less, even if they leave the silly things on!


I think You are correct Jim.

If leaving on a light is that much of a problem, Just jack up the rent $1 a month to pay for it.
 

MTcummins

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Thanks guys for the input. I'm with Jim on this one - I believe my suggested setup, which was as Jim described, would meet code b/c the ONLY possible effect of the timers was to turn on the lights earlier than the occupancy sensor, or keep it on longer than the occupancy sensor. To just make a blanket statement that you must use 3-way switches in all stair locations is, in my opinion, an oversimplification of the code, more for ease of general use than accuracy.

However, due to all the resistance here, I've decided to avoid any potential problems and am going with just occupancy sensors and no switches, per the exception to 210.70(A)(2)(a) and (A)(2)(c).

It costs a bit more up front, but keeping the lights off when not in use pays off in the long run, especially with energy costs continuing to rise. Not to mention less service calls to go change a light bulb or some other such nonsense (saves cost of extra burnt out bulbs and my time - one trip there to change a light that I hadn't planned on taking is worth the cost of the sensors). Also, I needed to have work done anyway to get a lighting control at rear door, so might as well do it the way I want it while I'm at it...

I do like the looks of the CREE LED lights at HD. Was just looking at a display of them today, where they had a 40 and a 60 watt equiv turned on in hanging lamp sockets. Not bad, a lot better than some of the bulbs I've seen not long ago. The area I'm lighting has (2) 4' fluorescent fixtures with 2 bulbs each, and an additional single medium bulb fixture in a smaller area. I think one of those 60w bulbs would do nicely in there, and probably last just about forever... will probably pick one of those up and give it a whirl. Side note, anyone used the LED floods in exterior motion flood lights? Or the 60w ones in a wall fixture on a covered porch? Aren't LEDs pretty sensitive to temperature? Would the weather kill them faster outside (if any of them are even outdoor rated, haven't looked yet).
 

DonL

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If you think that occupancy sensors will require less maintenance, You could be mistaken. That has not been my experience.

Occupancy sensors are hard on Incandescent Light bulbs, and many will not work with LEDs.

Occupancy sensors do go bad, and good luck finding ones that will last now a days.


Have Fun.
 

Jadnashua

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keep one thing in mind, location, location, location
As in, it may be quite difficult to impossible to get adequate coverage of the entire stairwell with one sensor and getting multiple ones installed properly can be tricky, not counting most are not really setup for more than one in the circuit. Read the fine print carefully, or contact the manufacturer to see if what you decide on will actually work. There certainly are some that can be in parallel, and some might support more than one sensor head with only a single controller, but you have to look carefully.
 

MTcummins

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Managed to get one to cover the whole area pretty well, wasn't sure if it would or not, but it did. The back door trips sensor when it opens, and lights come on as you step down onto the first step. Anyone know if there's some paint color, or something I could attach to a door, or anything like that which the sensors are more sensitive to? I was thinking that the basement door, which is in line of "sight" of the sensor, had something on it to make it more visible, it would come on as soon as you started opening the door, which would be a little bit better. Currently the door is a dark brown, but I'm not married to that color, would have changed it eventually anyway most likely. If it really doesn't work, might just have to bite the bullet and put in a 2nd sensor, but trying to avoid that route since it seems to be so close to where it should be already.

I'm not using any incandescents, only an LED and 2 florescent fixtures. The Lutron sensor I chose is rated for LEDs. Lutron seems to make fairly decent products, so hopefully the switch will last a good while before needing replacement. With new codes getting stricter in CA (and maybe elsewhere, not sure) so as to require vacancy sensors in habitable rooms, hopefully the sensors coming out these days will be of reasonable quality, but I guess we'll just have to see.

Any thoughts about the outdoor use of CREE LED bulbs? I see from the HD site that they're indoor/outdoor (damp rated). I'd be using 2 A19 bulbs inside fixtures under a covered porch, so def seems fine for that application. The flood lights are also under an overhang,and have the bulb sheilds, so seems like the moisture wouldn't be a problem. Anyone know anything about LEDs holding up in temp swings? I'd always heard they were temperature sensitive in general, will Pittsburgh weather (up to 100k or so in summer, down to a few below zero occasionally in winter) be ok for these? The flood bulbs are still a good bit pricier than the standard A19s, and I need 5 or 6 of them, so would rather not just buy them and take a chance...
 

Jadnashua

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Most of the motion sensors are based in IR (heat), so not much you can do with just a door...you need the quick temperature change which is senses as movement. What you'll find is that once tripped, if you stop and are quite still (say you've fallen, and are unconscious), the lights will just time out. We had them in one classroom I used, and it wouldn't see the instructor, and if the students didn't move, eventually, the lights would go out. Technically, this may mean it does not meet code since there could be a person in the stairway, and the lights could go out. How sensitive it is is adjustable, but make it too sensitive, and air currents through a window might turn it on, whether opened or closed, depending on the sun. The heat source must cross the fields of the sensor's detector, so just a heat source that isn't moving (or cross fields), does not trip it.
 

DonL

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To repeat those famous words, "Huston we have a problem."


A have Comm here, our down link is down out of Houston.


What model number did you get ?

I think you will need at least 2.



Good Luck.
 
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