Sump pump questions

Hi again. I've been doing some research on sump pumps. Right now we have a 1/3hp primary and a battery back up. I know we will need something different and if it is an underground spring, possibly either a larger pit or two pits. I read about a water powered back up that runs on your house water and will run indefinitely, if necessary. What would this be like as opposed to installing a natural gas powered generator? As you can see, I really want to sleep at night with out having to think about the boogy man in the basement failing for any reason. If it goes, we're underwater within just a few hours and I'm not sure the battery powered one would last long with the primary running as often as it does.
Thanks all. I think this is the first site I've been able to make any sense to this at all.

A water powered backup is impractical. It would take more than 1000 gallons per hour from the city water system to provide 1/2 HP at reasonable efficiencies. And you would have to get rid of that water too, as well as paying for it and in most cities paying to put it into the sewer.

There are lots of possibilities for backup:
1. Your battery system for short time backup
2. Automatic start generator
3. Battery powered alarm that wakes you at night or calls your cell phone and/or a neighbor so you can get someone to go in and start your generator
4. Arrangements with neighbors to start the generator if power goes off and you are not home

When you have a backup system you should test it once a week to make sure it's working. The Generac system that I am familiar with does an automatic self-test every week.

I usually apply my engineer mentality to these things. I would:
1. Put in a duplex pump system, which is a system that alternates pumps to keep them operating.
2. Generator with alarm system; probably not the Generac because of expense; but an electric start generator. But if you expect to collect the cost from the seller then go with the auto-start auto-transfer system like the Generac, including an automatic transfer switch. (Things are different if you are spending another person's money.)
3. An alarm system that notifies you and a backup person by phone if the water rises above the maximum control level, indicating a problem that must be dealt with.

With an DC pump and battery system you can add as many batterys as you like for extended run time. For the $$$ I would look closly at this set up.

What if the back up Gen. didn't work? You can go on and on with scenerios.

You can figure battery run time and add enough to take care of any reasonable outage. Even generators will run out of fuel.

Bob NHs system sounds good but lots of $$$ I would guess and I don't know about repair costs or maintenance.

Just my $.49

Water powered pumps are for low flow applications! If you have that much water coming in as you say you do, we would not recommend this pump for your application.

On our battery back up systems and on a fully charged battery, the pump can run on average 7.5 hrs continuously, 2 batteries = 15 hrs continuously, that is a lot of run time because normally sump pumps do not run that long continuous.

I'm thinking

I like the idea of a Generac system powered by natural gas. If we have no alternative but to live with the pump , would a good pumping system, battery back up and Generac let me sleep at night? We had great plans for that basement. I'd sure like to continue with them. Any improvements to the idea would be appreciated. Thanks.

The battery pump may be redundant if you put in the automatic generator. You would still probably want two pumps. They can be wired as a duplex system (automatic alternating) or with one float switch a little higher than the other. You could get some of the effect of a duplex system by manually switching the pumps every week or so. Or you could have them both operate every time there is a demand to pump out the sump. That might be the best if you have a large sump.

One benefit of the generator system is that you have backup power for other things; your computer, furnace, refrigerator, lights, and whatever else you consider essential.

The generator will start itself every week to keep it in condition and reliable. Nothing is perfectly reliable or capable of operating forever without fuel or energy source. If you go away for a long period you should have arrangements to operate systems while you are gone.

Aquanot Ii

the aquanot II will pump on its own for approx

4 to 5 solid pumping ours.........
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an automatic gas powered generator with all the bells and whistles will run you about 5-7K thats pretty pricey....
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thats a long time, when you consider its pumping out a pit of water
that takes maybe about a minute every time....

then add how long t takes for hte pit to re-fill again......

it takes a long time to add that up to 5 hours.......

and the alarm is loud enough to wake the dead.......


so you can figure you will be ok for a few days away...

and usually in most situations either the power has come back on

or the clavery has arrived to start a generator...


so its your most pratical choice....

http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/services/

The problem

is the pit never empties completely at all. The pump has only been able to empty about 1/3 of it and it takes a full 10 minutes to do that. Then within 20 minutes it's filled to the top and pumping again. It's going for 10 minutes every 20-26 minutes on a constant basis round the clock. The system we have right now is a brand new 1/3 hp Zoeller with a brand new Zoeller battery back up. We are so afraid of another flood because of pump failure (we lost a tremendous amount of our things) that we are willing to put in the home generator for piece of mind and the fact that we need the basement to be dry. We're willing to do nearly ANYTHING.
The pit space seems to be filled by the pump. The pump has to be up higher on blocks because the float (it's a vertical) would be underwater all the time and have run constantly if we didn't. I was considering a pedestal pump so there would be more space in the pit for water and the pump could pump out more. Is that correct thinking? The drainage pipes leading into the pump are at the top of the pit and the water is always right at that pipe level and above. The pump can't seem to get it below them, ever. Then the water comes right back in. I would love to get some kind of a pump system that could empty the pit. I think it would pump less often if that were the case. Even with a home standby generator we would have a battery back up because if the primary pumps fails for any reason we're under water and fast. The pit is about 24 x 30, I think. You guys have been great and this site is the first place I've had any answers at all. I really thank you. This is frightening for me and I know nothing about stuff like this except that we lost most of a lifelong collection and can't afford to lose more. Would a pedestal pump give us more room in the pit? Would that and a battery back up PLUS a standby natural gas generator work? If not, any suggestions? Thank you all so much. All the information I've gotten here has helped make this situation alot more bearable. We have felt quite alone in this.

With a water problem like that I would consider a move. Or plug the sump pit and let the house float to it's highest level and the water problem is gone. Kinda like draining a swimming pool with high ground water. It becomes a ship.

Getting back to reality, have you considered well pointing around the house and getting rid of the water this way?

bob...

We just moved here.

This is our new home!! It's only 5 years old. We just moved in last Oct. and the seller never told us about this. They told us the basement never had a water problem and was completely dry. We can't afford to sell it and move again. We'd never be able to sell the house this way and never get our money back. The loss would be just too great for us to absorb at this stage of our lives (we're both seniors and can't do this type of work ourselves). We're stuck in what we thought was our dream home and we have to stay. We will have to deal with the lies the seller told us later. As it is we need to fix the problem as best we can and live with it, I'm afraid. And, yes, it makes us sick. Very sick!
What is "well pointing"? we'll consider ANYTHING to make the problem go away or make it better.
It seems like a steady water source from somewhere. When the pump failed we got about 4 inches of water across the entire basement (it's big) by the time we discovered it (about 24-36 hours). If I have to learn to live with a pump I just want something that I know won't fail us again. If we could take care of it from the outside with drains or ANYTHING...well that would be great, too. Would well pointing do something like that? I am unfamiliar with it.
Any suggestions are really appreciated and we will take all into consideration.
Thank you, again.

Well pointing is done a lot when contractors are digging and the water level is high and keeps caving in the trench. By installing well points around the area to be trenched the water can be pumped from the ground through the well points and the trench is now dry.

This could be done around your home. All the well points are piped together and are attached to a pump. This will allow your sump pump to become the backup not the main unit. With the battery backup you now have three ways of keeping your basement dry.

These points can all be attached to a pit if the ground levels allow and then can be pumped from the pit when needed by a submersible pump.

The whole idea behind the well points is to keep your basement totally dry. The water would not be allowed to get to the basement if the points work properly.

I can't give you an approximate cost, but you might look in the yellow pages under dewatering or well pointing.

bob...

Thank you.

THAT is very interesting! We would certainly like to try and keep the water from even getting near the basement. I'm willing to do the WHOLE thing if necessary.
We bought the house because of the basement and the belief that it was dry. We can't afford to sell and move and it's made us both sick at heart! Believe me!! I'll deal with the sellers later. They will have to answer to a total lie about this house, but in the meantime we have to make it our home for the rest of our lives.
I will look into well pointing AND everything else we have to do to make the basement dry. Any pointers so I don't get fooled again?

I think you will find most well pointing companies do commercial work for utilities, so the hardest part may be getting them to do a little job like this would be.

Don't wait too long to deal with the unscrupulous Realtor. I think you have one year from date of purchase to go after her. This way you have the realty board and the law on your side. It's very possible they will have to reimburse you for your expenses.

Good luck,

bob...

Thank you, Bob.

We do have a friend that is an attny looking into it. We have to establish our "loss" first and that means an estimate on a fix and a fix. I want to start to work on the problem, THEN I'll take care of the seller, who was ALSO the realtor involved and, I believe, is held to a higher accountability on the disclosure she didn't bother to do. I do think that lying to us will have some ramifications, but we need to fix the problem so we can live here as we intended. I'll look into the well pointing. Thank you. As a matter of fact, thank you all for the suggestions. They will all be taken into consideration when we can finally get this going. We're still in shock because of the flood so it's been hard to act on anything, not to mention, it's hard to figure out whom to go to for this type of thing. That's why I've really appreciate this site. YOU all are giving me answers instead of runarounds.

One of my customers bought a Generac 7 kW propane powered generator for less than $2500, complete with transfer switch. You can get a backup generator dedicated to the pumps for a lot less.

At your rate of water infiltration the cost of electricity is not insignificant. Gravity drainage is the best solution if there is a place to drain it.

But your problem is much more than figuring out which pump to buy, or which power backup system to install.

You need to find someone you can trust to figure out your options and explain them to you. There will be different costs, and you are the only ones who can judge what is important to you in terms of peace of mind and reliability.

If I were engineering this situation I would:
1. Determine if it is practical to drain the water. Talk to possible contractors and listen their ideas and estimates of cost.
2. Do the same thing with pumping systems. Determine how much water must be pumped? Where will it be discharged?
3. What is the cost of a pump system that will give you the kind of reliability that you need? Battery or generator, or two small gasoline generators dedicated to the pump system? You need something that you can manage when you are less able than you are now, and that someone else will be willling to buy. You don't want something that takes an engineer to run it. I'm a retired senior also and know what is important.
4. Compare the costs and features of the systems, make a recommendation to you, and work with you to help you make your decision.
5. Work with you and suppliers to get the system installed and operating.

You should get proposals or estimates from vendors and contractors for the several alternatives before you sign any contracts or make big expenditures for equipment.

You need to pursue the legal aspects with the seller before the case gets stale. The threat of a suit with the possibility of punitive damages and loss of real estate license might encourage the seller to settle. To do that, you need to know the cost so that you get enough money to remedy the problem.

I agree with you that selling is probably not a reasonable option. The discount for a distress sale would be more than the cost to fix the problem.

Thanks

I don't mind paying for a whole house natural gas generator. I think it would make me feel better knowing there could be no disruption in power and then no possibility of failure especially with a dual system. Because the pit seems filled with the pump system(submersible), would a pedestal style that leaves more room in the pit for water be advisable? That way it could pump out more water less often? Or, do we have to amke the pit larger? Having it pump for a full 10 minutes every 20 minutes seems way too much. Do we go to one of those "basement waterproofing" services to start? We've been trying to get a "friend of a friend" that is an engineer out here but he works for the firm that works for the town and the word "stonewall" comes to mind. We wonder if the house was even inspected properly when it was being built (seems the house plans that the town has are now being microfilmed and "aren't available" - hmmm) and how they could allow it over running water like this. We had hoped it might just be runoff but with a steady supply and at the same amount all the time (even during a 13" rainfall!) you have convinced me it is probably an aquifer coming up. Possibly from the new nearby reservoir. We can't sell and move - too old now, and I have serious health problems to even consider it. This was, and finances dictate, that this will have to be our last home. We will just have to "suck up" and fix the problem and then go the legal route to see if we can be reimbursed in some manner later. The important thing is to fix the problem so we can use the basement. The health problems also dictate that it be dry or I can fry myself very easily. LOL I don't mix with water and electric well ....not thay any of us do, but I REALLY don't. I don't get just a shock. I have wires in my body that would fry. It's very important we have a dry basement. I hate that we've been put in this position, but the simple fact is, we are, and we have to deal with it. Thanks for helping. With the amount of anxiety this has produced I'm surprised I can still stand up much less think of a solution. You're all helping so much. It makes me feel alot better. Thanks! Thanks! Thanks!!

Waterproofing will not work. You would have to make the basement like a ship and then the water would lift the whole house.

I like submersible pumps versus pedestal because they are usually less expensive for the same flow capacity. The pump takes up very little volume in the sump and would not significantly affect the frequency of pumping.

The biggest factor to reduce the frequency of pumping would be to increase the diameter of the hole. Pumping the water lower might make the inflow rate increase. It depends on the level of the water table. The farther you pump below the water table, the greater the inflow rate.

Battery powered pumps usually have less capacity than standard AC powered pumps. I don't have the specs on the recommended Zoeller, or on what you have, but one "high capacity" pump (Glentronics PHCC-2200) pumps about 36 GPM at 10 ft of head. In AC powered pumps, a 1/2 HPZoeller M137 pumps 79 GPM at 10 ft of head. A 3/4 HP Dayton selling for the same price pumps 101 GPM at 10 ft of head. Both are about $300 in my Grainger catalog.

Your 24 x 30 sump contains only about 40 gallons of water per foot of height. The fact that it takes 10 minutes to refill suggests your inflow is only about 5 GPM. You should be able to pump it out in 2 or 3 minutes. Your pump may not be matched to the head requirements or it may not be working properly. If your flow rate is that low, then you don't need a big pump but you need reliable pumps with adequate margin.

If you like the whole-house generator, then you should have two pumps with an alternating controller, usually called a duplex control panel. Duplex controllers cost $700 or so commercially but can be made for much less. You could keep your battery powered pump as a super backup. The generator system is probably the lowest cost and the generator has value if you eventually put in a drain.

You should find the real inflow rate and get a pump that will pump it out in the wet season. The second pump is a backup but they should be operated alternately for reliability.

Ok

wait, Bob....you're getting a bit over my head. The pump we have now is a 1/3hp Zoeller with an additional Zoeller battery back up. It sits high up in the pit on blocks so the float isn't always underwater, and only removes about 1/3 of the water in the pit. It takes 10 pumping minutes to do this as water is coming right back in. After it pumps to slightly above the bottom of the drain in the side of the pit where the water comes in, it goes quiet for about 25 minutes. During that time the water goes back up to within a few inches of the top of the pit and that triggers the sump again. This cycle of 26 minutes off and then 10 minutes to pump 1/3 of the pit is continous.
We do have an extra deep basement (ARGH!) so the head is alot, maybe 10-12 feet vertically. The pipe then goes across the living room floor trusses out the foundation (under a small porch) and over to our side yard now where it flows down a slight hill and into the street. Before it came out the other side of the house and went right back into the foundation and all over the driveway leaving a lake in the middle. We had the discharge piping redone when we had the new pump and back up put in so we didn't have that lake in the driveway all the time. How did we not see it? Well, they always had a car over it (gravel driveway) and always hid the discharge pipe.
So, is what would work: making the pit diameter larger ( ah, HA!! - Got it!), getting a duplex system and a house standby generator?

Yes, a generator with a duplex pump setup would get rid of your water and you could sleep at night.

I don't know what 1/3 HP Zoeller you have, but when I look at 1/3 HP pumps they should put out 35 GPM at 15 ft of head. It should not take 10 minutes to pump out one foot of depth in a 24 x 30 inch sump.

Now to confuse you more. The EFFECTIVE area of your sump may be MUCH larger if you have sandy soil under the floor. There could be 30% open space in the sand and gravel that is holding water. So when you pump down, you are pumping from a much larger area. And then it takes longer to fill up.

It would be extremely helpful if you could go out when the pump is running and measure how many seconds it takes to fill a 5 gallon bucket. You need to know the quantity of water being discharged for each cycle. A 5 gallon bucket is usually 5 gallons when about 2 inches from full.

Now for the math. If it takes 10 seconds to pump 5 gallons, then you are pumping 30 gallons per minute for 10 minutes, or 300 gallons per 10-minute cycle. Your total cycle is 10 on and 26 off for a total of 36 minutes. Therefore, your infiltration rate is 300 gallons/ 36 minutes = 8.3 gallons per minute. It would also tells you that the EFFECTIVE storage in your sump (including the sand under the floor) is about 220 gallons (300 gallons per pumpout - 83 gallons additional infiltration during pumpout).

If you aren't getting close to 30 GPM with a 1/3 HP pump, then you need to find out why, and get it fixed.

So, knowing the total pumpout during each cycle is necessary to design the system, to determine the pumps you really need, and even to figure out if your existing pump system is working properly.

And you don't need a bigger sump if you already have a much larger sump in the sand under the floor. You only need a hole big enough for your pumps.

Check your private messages for more information.

Something that wasn't mentioned here, and probably isn't the case, but is it possible that there is a water main running near the house and it is broken? Do you smell any chlorine in the water in the sump? If this were the case, I'd hope the water utility would figure it out, but might it be worth asking them? Depending on the size of the main, it might not seriously affect customers down the line. It might explain the seller's comments (this assumes they weren't lying, which may not be true at all). It seems that your neighbors indicated that they had water problems previously, so this is probably not the case...just a thought.

I grew up in a house where we were about 1/4 mile from the towns spring fed water supply. If the power was off, we could get 6" of water in the basement in about 3-4 hours, so I understand your problem.