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Thread: Separating Ground & Neutrals to Create Subpanel

  1. #16
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    I really do not like the Idea of Auto Switchover when it comes to Generator Power. Unattended operation, is one big reason.

    In a home it can cause Lock Rotor conditions on anything with a compressor, and as JW pointed out stall the Generator or trip its breaker. Then you have even bigger problems, and can end up with nothing.

    It is not that much work to manually start the generator and switch loads to only what is needed.

    I use properly rated extension cords to power only the needed items. It saves fuel and I can suffer a bit until a Hurricane has passed.


    People are spoiled now a days, To each his own.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  2. #17
    DIY Senior Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    I really do not like the Idea of Auto Switchover when it comes to Generator Power. Unattended operation, is one big reason.

    In a home it can cause Lock Rotor conditions on anything with a compressor, and as JW pointed out stall the Generator or trip its breaker. Then you have even bigger problems, and can end up with nothing.

    It is not that much work to manually start the generator and switch loads to only what is needed.

    I use properly rated extension cords to power only the needed items. It saves fuel and I can suffer a bit until a Hurricane has passed.


    People are spoiled now a days, To each his own.

    You have got to be kidding here......In my area after millions of people suffered thru some severe storms over the last couple years.....Homeowners are buying generators at a very high rate and a very large percentage are larger units with Automatic Transfer Switches....and yes they now offer load shedding modules and the installs are not simple.....The company I work for services...sells....repairs.....and has installed hundreds of units......No way the average homeowner wants to do anything but pick up the phone if their generator does not work in a power failure.....Our phones never stopped ringing in a Storm like Hurricane Sandy......except during the actual event when everyone was hunkered down....Our commercial accounts are even more demanding and we service hundreds and hundreds of machines and switchgear......

  3. #18
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    I have two generators and use cords when needed. I do not have any type of transfer switch. Cord from generator to appliance or lamp.

    What would people do in case of a solar flash?
    gee no tv tonight.

  4. #19
    DIY Senior Member Rich B's Avatar
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    What you and I do at home in a power outage is not the issue...

    What others request and are willing to pay money for.....is what I am speaking about...

    What about Essential services.......Like Police....Fire....Emergency...Health care providers.....Hospitals...

    They ALL have backup power with automatic transfer switches.......Some have redundant systems

    We have clients that spend thousands and thousands of dollars so they are never without power and they are data centers....

    After Hurricane Sandy they were so paranoid about possibly losing power in another possible storm they went on generator power before the storm and had us put men on site 24/7 until well after the storm......They even have backup machines in place to backup their backup!!! We have one in our yard now for one of those companies.....they have no room so we have it.....500KW unit on a trailer.....just for them incase their regular unit were to fail.....

    Money talks......

    So why should a homeowner not have the option of having the same capability....They do and if they are willing to spend the money for a proper install it gets done....

  5. #20
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    a proper install it gets done....
    Here-in lies the truth of the matter. The big problem is most don't know how to do a proper install

  6. #21
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    What you and I do at home in a power outage is not the issue...

    What others request and are willing to pay money for.....is what I am speaking about...

    What about Essential services.......Like Police....Fire....Emergency...Health care providers.....Hospitals...

    They ALL have backup power with automatic transfer switches.......Some have redundant systems

    We have clients that spend thousands and thousands of dollars so they are never without power and they are data centers....

    After Hurricane Sandy they were so paranoid about possibly losing power in another possible storm they went on generator power before the storm and had us put men on site 24/7 until well after the storm......They even have backup machines in place to backup their backup!!! We have one in our yard now for one of those companies.....they have no room so we have it.....500KW unit on a trailer.....just for them incase their regular unit were to fail.....

    Money talks......

    So why should a homeowner not have the option of having the same capability....They do and if they are willing to spend the money for a proper install it gets done....

    I worked on 3 phase switchgear but would not think of using it on my Home.

    Or a Changeover that I have no control over, unless I am home when "It tries to start". What happens if it does not start ?

    You still have nothing, and it can Pop electronics in your home. Seen electronics on oil rigs that fried because the Gen would not Gen. It can cost Millions of dollars when that happens.

    Even Natural Gas may not be available.

    You are correct Money talks, and fools fall for BS. I am not sold.


    Like I said people are getting lazy.


    As long as the Beer stays cold you should be good. Just buy or make Ice.
    Last edited by DonL; 08-27-2013 at 05:49 PM.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  7. #22
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Here-in lies the truth of the matter. The big problem is most don't know how to do a proper install

    Exactly.

    That is very True.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  8. #23
    DIY Senior Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Here-in lies the truth of the matter. The big problem is most don't know how to do a proper install

    JW......We do not do installs anymore....All home units are done by contractors who use licensed electricians and plumbers with permits and inspections. Or by some electrical contractors who are licensed. I know of very few problems with any of these installs but truthfully we have seen many improper things passed. We come across things all the time especially in the area of fuel lines and plumbing. The electrical end not so much.

  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member Rich B's Avatar
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    I worked on 3 phase switchgear but would not think of using it on my Home.

    Well the average homeowner does not have 3 phase power and it is not all that much different than single phase anyway...So whats the big deal...

    Or a Changeover that I have no control over, unless I am home when "It tries to start". What happens if it does not start ?
    You still have nothing.

    When power fails the only way a Transfer switch can operate is when your generator starts and makes AC power to energize the switch...
    If it doesn't start.....you failed to properly maintain your generator....and modern ATS equipment is mostly PC boards and an operator. Not many relays and timers like the old stuff.....and are not electrically held....like the old stuff that lasted for years and years anyway...

  10. #25
    DIY Senior Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Your objections to modern equipment make zero sense....To each his own....

  11. #26
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    Your objections to modern equipment make zero sense....To each his own....

    That is why I run my beer cooler on Solar power.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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