Old house with oil/steam heat - help

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gennady

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And, if you had children around, would you prefer a radiator that had a section that was 212+ degrees, or something that was maybe 120-degrees. Which one would you like to sit next to? Water verses steam also likely means you can actually use more of the room, and not get boiled. If you're putting in 212+ steam, and your load is low, like most of the season, how often does it need to cycle verses running more constantly at a much lower temperature. Commercial steam? Maybe a good solution, residential, not.

Why you discriminating against elderly people and cats? They can be burnt by hot radiator too. And what about a cup of tea? What if children are around cup of tea of 200F. They can get burnt too.
Steam is around for a quite a few years and i still have to hear about children burnt by hot radiator.
Regarding short cycling of the boilers, it has nothing to do with media, more with sizing of the boiler, and i had seen same amount of short cycling hot water boilers as steam ones. Of course modulating boilers work better, but they always over sized, zoned and installed without primary secondary piping. Few contractors know how to install and set up them.
Half of my business comes from fixing other people installations, and I see terrible nightmarish installations all the time.
My point is that properly installed and set up steam system is on par with properly set up and installed high efficiency hot water system. How i know? I had done this.
 
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BadgerBoilerMN

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Primary/secondary was "invented" to keep old-fashioned fuel eating boilers hot enough to make sure the condensing occurred in the open atmosphere instead of the boiler, flue or chimney. Most hot water heating technicians are still doing this today, just as some are still shoeing horses. But like riding horses to work, retrofitting suitable hydronic systems with old worn out technology can only be attributed to ignorance or greed. Since there is nothing in it for the homeowner but a cheaper fix and in many cases the contractor charges more to do it wrong, being an "expert" in steam heat and all. There is no merit in P/S in and of itself. If your system flow requirements meet your boiler flow requirements you need one pump, assuring minimum flow through the low-mass heat exchanger and the lowest, unmixed, return temperature available in all operating conditions. Perfect systems and boiler efficiency in one.

I have signed copies of DH books and Ziggy's etc. I can read and write, hold a Master's license in steam, hot water in Minneapolis/St.Paul and know that a 400°F stack temperature can only be called "efficient" relative to the extreme inefficiency of adding enough energy to change phase in water. I will take the 100° stack temperature of the condensing boiler every day and still use the built-in outdoor reset to squeeze every drop of usable heat from the fuel.

The people who advocate cast iron and those who sell the trim to dress up the pigs, try to make this argument continually, but without effect since they can't honestly nor reasonably explain where the other 300°F of energy goes. If it the heat isn't recovered in the boiler it is lost to the atmosphere. Period.

We are talking about residential hot water/steam conversions here. Naturally process, one-pipe and systems short of radiation must be replaced with all the latest technology, which will in fact lower the fuel bills, but this is rare in my experience. More often a condensing boiler can be installed and pay for itself in less than a decade. No such assertions can be made for steam systems.

Give me a Brownstone and I'll give you a properly sized condensing boiler with indirect water heater and cut the fuel bill by half.

As for the government. It doesn't take that much to get ahead of a bureaucrat but sure embarrassing when you get behind.

"And over sizing of the radiators are things of the past."

That was my point of course. When cast iron radiators were king, the radiators were generally and typically over-sized, thus able to heat space at much lower design temperatures using the same EDR as the old system. With modest home improvement, e.g. storm windows and insulation, many old cast iron radiators can heat hundred year old houses with temperatures well below steam and well within sustained flue gas condensation (the bane of all old-fashioned heating systems originally designed for coal consumption). An old cast iron radiator is a terrible thing to waste and often a perfect match for condensing boiler technology without the inherent maintenance associated with steam heating. We use TRVs with both but they will not assure efficiency of any kind unless sized, balanced and maintained by experienced techs. Nice little niche.
 

Dana

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The distribution losses of steam system due to large diameter plumbing and high temperatures can be gia-normous. If fully contained within a tight conditioned space this can be of small consequence, but that's not always the case. The size and expense of pipe insulation sufficient to manage/reduce those losses isn't trivial either.

But it can be cheaper than installing a mod-con and low-temp radiation. The heat loads on old uninsulated brownstones can be large, and the ease of installing sufficient low-temp radiation (or retrofit insulation to the building) difficult. I can believe there will be instances where the differences in raw combustion efficiency are small enough that the pumping cost at NYC type electricity rates (~2x the national average) would make the operational cost comparable to a not-so-low temperature mod-con setup, but like I say, it's probably more the exception than the rule. The raw combustion efficiency of steam is one limitation, typically high distribution loss/low system efficiency issue is another, and the exceptions shouldn't be confused with the rule. The notion that optimized steam and optimized mod-con systems somehow offer equivalent-efficiency or equivalent operating costs is simply false for nearly all single family homes, and most multi-family homes, and very unlikely in elizabeth40's home.
 

gennady

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Primary/secondary was "invented" to keep old-fashioned fuel eating boilers hot enough to make sure the condensing occurred in the open atmosphere instead of the boiler, flue or chimney. Most hot water heating technicians are still doing this today, just as some are still shoeing horses. .…......…............

I have signed copies of DH books and Ziggy's etc. I can read and write,

Maybe you need this book signed by Dan Hologan


image.jpg

I attached photo of afterword page.

Interesting reading, isn't it?


image.jpg

BTW, last time I saw Dan, he thanked me for contribution to his site.



And this page is from viessman vitodens boiler installation manual. This boiler is so new, it will appear on US market only in a week. And yet these old timers from Germany want this boiler piped primary secondary trough hydrolic separator. Shame on them?

image.jpg
 
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gennady

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The distribution losses of steam system due to large diameter plumbing and high temperatures can be gia-normous. If fully contained within a tight conditioned space this can be of small consequence, but that's not always the case. The size and expense of pipe insulation sufficient to manage/reduce those losses isn't trivial either.

But it can be cheaper than installing a mod-con and low-temp radiation. The heat loads on old uninsulated brownstones can be large, and the ease of installing sufficient low-temp radiation (or retrofit insulation to the building) difficult. I can believe there will be instances where the differences in raw combustion efficiency are small enough that the pumping cost at NYC type electricity rates (~2x the national average) would make the operational cost comparable to a not-so-low temperature mod-con setup, but like I say, it's probably more the exception than the rule. The raw combustion efficiency of steam is one limitation, typically high distribution loss/low system efficiency issue is another, and the exceptions shouldn't be confused with the rule. The notion that optimized steam and optimized mod-con systems somehow offer equivalent-efficiency or equivalent operating costs is simply false for nearly all single family homes, and most multi-family homes, and very unlikely in elizabeth40's home.

Well insulated steam pipes losing as little heat as well insulated hot water piping. It does not matter what diameter piping there, it matters how well piping insulation done in unconditioned spaces. And we do it well. Heat losses of uninsulated brownstones are high, but does heat loss depends on heat transfer medium or just on wind, infiltrations, outdoor temp, indoor temp and R of envelope? Heat loss is a heat loss. All you have to do is compensate it to keep indoor temp steady. And the manner in which this compensation is done plays huge factor in system efficiency. I find boiler efficiency a factor in system efficiency, but not a main factor. Just my 2 cents.
 
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Dana

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"Well insulated steam pipes losing as little heat as well insulated hot water piping."

Both the surface area and the delta-T on the fat steam pipes is much larger than in the skinny pumped water- diameter definitely matters- you can't cheat the basic physics & geometry.

"It does not matter what diameter piping there, it matters how well piping insulation done in unconditioned spaces."

In less-insulated buildings the heat loss from the distribution doesn't always accrue to places where it's needed or wanted, but yes, keeping it all inside of a fully conditioned space minimizes the impact of those losses. I've seen balloon framed 3-story houses where the steam pipes were run in the exterior wall cavities. A 190F delta-T on less than an inch of retrofit cellulose is pretty lossy (glares like a blinding streak in the infra-red imaging.) If that's the way her house was done, she should probably be moving on, but not with mechanicals her contractors were pushing.

If her steam distribution is done somewhat better than that it's still speculative whether optimizing the steam system is a better use of funds for elizabeth40 than some other system with other building upgrades. To keep the steam she would be on the hook for a new boiler at a minimum, and I can think of plenty of ways that house that vintage could be thermally optimized. But the oversized mid-efficiency gas hot air furnace + heat pump system advise seems like a pretty gross hack that would likely cost more up front than a new steam boiler and provide lower heating-season comfort than re-commisioned steam with a shiny new boiler & tuned venting etc. .

Retrofitting the low-temp radiation required for a mod-con seems unlikely to be financially rational (unless it was ridiculously oversized 2-pipe steam that could be converted) and if air conditioning were the goal well placed & sized ductless would probably be preferable to a 2-stage ducted hack. Lowering the heat load with building upgrades is likely to be more cost-effective and higher impact than trading in the steam for a low-temp mod-con, unless a lot of retrofit work has already been done to the house, and the low-temp radiation were already in place.
 

BadgerBoilerMN

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WE rarely install any boiler with P/S except for those manufacturers that mandate it, such as Buderus, Weil McLain and Slant-Fin and the reason we will not use these boilers on steam or gravity hydronic systems and yes, over-radiation. The first use of P/S was to keep atmospheric boilers hot enough to maintain minimum stack temperatures. I wish it still was.

As Dana points out, with upgrades to the thermal envelope the radiation by definition is over-sized since the lower the load the lower the AWT required. Steam radiators are almost always big enough to facilitate ready conversion and unlike a steam boiler the outdoor reset built in to all residential condensing boilers will allow the boiler to operate below design water temperature in all but outdoor design conditions.

We design new hydronic systems every week and always over-size our radiation to accommodate the condensing technology. I thing over-sizing radiators is a thing of the future. Steam a thing of the past.

As for system vs. boiler efficiency I have to agree. Of course first we have to agree that installing two pumps on one single zone boiler is wasting labor and 20 years of operating cost at 100-200 watts/hr and kills system efficiency before you get started. Then we could talk about thermal, combustion and AFUEs...not the same thing.

Viessmann does not mandate P/S and one of the reasons they are one of our favorites on steam and gravity conversions. They do like to sell hydrolic separators, something trade magazines and those who write for them are sensitive to.

There is no logical argument for doubling electrical operated costs and the chance of a nuisance no-heat by adding a redundant circulator to any single zone hydronic system. The only thing this will accomplish, beyond the obvious wasted labor, material and operating cost, is to inevitably raise the return water temperature to the boiler. This is not progress where condensing boilers are concerned.

But it does make their installation a little more idiot-proof. Having build condensing boilers I can understand their logic, but still am not convinced that is serves you or your customers.

We will commission a 150mbtu IBC this week; six-zones, DHW priority, old cast iron radiators, sub-floor radiant, radiant ceiling, cast iron baseboard...one pump. Imagine...
 
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BadgerBoilerMN

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In injection loops for radiant heat you might find 70F delta t with delivery temperature of water 180F. It is done to reduce GPM , pumping costs and installation costs. In hydronic applications the larger delta T supply return ( non radiant ) desired, to reduce pumping costs, installation costs and so on. In Europe in hydronic non radiant applications installers are shooting for 60F Della T. If you are talking about indoor outdoor temperatures difference, who said that on steam indoor temperature is higher than on forced hot water system? Indoor temperature stays set by customer

Injection is rarely justified in residential application. The reason? Higher installation cost, operating costs etc. It is a crutch for those handicapped by old-fashioned, inherently inefficient cast iron boilers. The "Europeans" wouldn't have it. In England only condensing boilers are allowed.

The higher the water temperature delivered to the radiation, the higher the heat load. Yes, the heat load since temperature differential between indoor air and outdoor air during design conditions is but one factor of heat loss 200°F radiators next to double hung window from the horse-and-buggy days will drive more heat out of the building than the same radiator at 100°F operating on ODR. Even if (rare) the radiator ever needed to be operated at 200°F supply water temperature it would amount to a few days and easily done with some of the condensing boilers available in the market today. The rest of the season lower water temperatures would prevail and operating costs go down accordingly.
 

Tom Sawyer

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Think........VFD pumping

One of the big problems with steam boiler is that you need head space above the water level. without the head space the boiler makes steam so fast that the water level drops faster than the condensate can return causing overfilling of the boiler along with surging and steam hammer. So most installers get around the issue by installing oversized equipment and down firing the burner. We have a lot of steam systems in my area. I grew up on steam, have an unfounded fondness for steam but its time has come for residential heating. Then again, a lot of times salesmen will tell folks that if they tear the old steam system out and install a new boiler and radiation of some sort (even converting the radiators) the customer will save a ton of money and honestly, probably not. Sure, the new system will cost less to operate but when you back that out against a 10 to 20 thousand installation cost, it takes a whole lot of years to pay that back. In fact it takes so many years that by the time its all paid for the equipment is outdated again. Its like chasing your tail. I don't blow smoke up the customers back side. I try to sell the conversion based on comfort, less maintainence, safety (steam can and occasionally does blow up) and reliability. Also too note is that most steam systems are getting on close to 75 years in age and that old steel piping is going to start leaking.
 

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I haven't chased a lot of steam systems, but I've yet to see an old steam with serious leakage issues (which was one of elizabeth40's concerns.) Is it really all that common?

The only leakage issue I've seen was corrosion on the Hartford loop of a friend's circa 1920 1-pipe steam system- not exactly disasterously expensive to repair. The original boiler got swapped out in the past 5 years with an 82% AFUE Burham- fuel use improved ~15% with the swap out. Tweaking the venting got another ~15% but there's probably more to be had in simple & cheap tweaks. This house has no wall insulation, and the heat distribution plumbing uses the balloon framing as chase- it's a real efficiency nightmare. Were it my own home I would not have swapped in a new steam boiler, but she was stuck with an inspector-condemned boiler and cash-strapped, with insurance covering most of the cost of the swap.

I convinced my in-laws to get rid of a few ~90 year old 1-pipe steam systems in one of their multi-family rental properties though- originally coal boilers converted to oil then gas-burner pieces of scrap iron junk, with 2" distribution piping (also in exterior wall cavities, but with retrofit cellulose), replaced with 2 & 3 plate mid-efficiency cast iron and sufficient baseboard for 140F AWT operation, zoned by floor. Fuel use dropped by about 2/3. The steam systems were still functional, but a liability. A Maine Coon Cat could have crawled through the passages of the heat exchangers of those boilers with room to spare, and between the likely ~45% combustion efficiency and the huge distribution losses there was no argument for re-re-re-commissioning the systems.
 

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Yea, leaking, rotted returns is a very common thing. I'd estimate that we repair a dozen or so every year. Not as common on the supply piping but it does happen, especially at the radiator valve which are another source of problems because packings wear out and valves freeze in position. Then you get into radiator and main vents that haven't been changed in 50 years, radiator and main traps that quit working properly sometime in the 50's. Steam is wonderful when everything is in new condition and functioning properly but its expensive to maintain. A quick tell, is when you see the pressure-troll cranked up to 5 lbs or so trying to compensate for other problems. Most residential steam was designed to run at around 1/2lb steam.
 

gennady

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Viessmann does not mandate P/S and one of the reasons they are one of our favorites on steam and gravity conversions. They do like to sell hydrolic separators, something trade magazines and those who write for them are sensitive to.

There is no logical argument for doubling electrical operated costs and the chance of a nuisance no-heat by adding a redundant circulator to any single zone hydronic system. The only thing this will accomplish, beyond the obvious wasted labor, material and operating cost, is to inevitably raise the return water temperature to the boiler. This is not progress where condensing boilers are concerned.

these are clear guidelines for LLH
also make a note that in viessmann opinion primary secondary arrangement does promote condensing in condensing boilers, quite different from your statement.
2013-08-30 21.22.01.png
 
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gennady

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The higher the water temperature delivered to the radiation, the higher the heat load

This is not true. load is determined by space heat loss, not temperature of radiator. Also, delivering higher temperature water to radiator or manifold, allows to cut on flow, because heat load is dictated by heat loss, and using universal formula Q=dTxFlow(GPM) x500, where Q is amount of heat transferred by water flow, we see if we increase delta t we can decrease flow, and cut pumping costs and so on.
 
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Dana

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This is not true. load is determined by space heat loss, not temperature of radiator. Also, delivering higher temperature water to radiator or manifold, allows to cut on flow, because heat load is dictated by heat loss, and using universal formula Q=dTxFlow(GPM) x500, where Q is amount of heat transferred by water flow, we see if we increase delta t we can decrease flow, and cut pumping costs and so on.

gennady- you conveniently omit and thus misconstrue the rest of BadgerBoilerMN's statement, which was his primary point:

"The higher the water temperature delivered to the radiation, the higher the heat load. Yes, the heat load since temperature differential between indoor air and outdoor air during design conditions is but one factor of heat loss 200°F radiators next to double hung window from the horse-and-buggy days will drive more heat out of the building than the same radiator at 100°F operating on ODR."

Yes, a hotter radiator next to a high-U section of exterior (like a window) does in fact increase the heat loss of the building, in exactly the manner he states- you can't cheat the raw physics. Raising the convecting column of air next the window several 10s of degrees relative to what it would be with a low-temp system creates a higher net heat load, even at the same average room temperature.

Similarly you somehow mis-read Viesmann's promotion of P/S plumbing at a mandate for the same, which it clearly is not. It explicitly spells out "When to use a low loss header:", leaving implicit the conditions under which is it not needed. A suggestion is not a mandate- designers who can do the math know the difference. If the design flow requirements of both the system & the boiler are in the same range there is no requirement (or any real reason) for hydraulic separation.

When making the argument, please try to parse the words of Viessmann or BadgerBoilerMN a bit more carefully, lest it stop making sense.
 

gennady

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gennady- you conveniently omit and thus misconstrue the rest of BadgerBoilerMN's statement, which was his primary point:

"The higher the water temperature delivered to the radiation, the higher the heat load. Yes, the heat load since temperature differential between indoor air and outdoor air during design conditions is but one factor of heat loss 200°F radiators next to double hung window from the horse-and-buggy days will drive more heat out of the building than the same radiator at 100°F operating on ODR."

Yes, a hotter radiator next to a high-U section of exterior (like a window) does in fact increase the heat loss of the building, in exactly the manner he states- you can't cheat the raw physics. Raising the convecting column of air next the window several 10s of degrees relative to what it would be with a low-temp system creates a higher net heat load, even at the same average room temperature.

Similarly you somehow mis-read Viesmann's promotion of P/S plumbing at a mandate for the same, which it clearly is not. It explicitly spells out "When to use a low loss header:", leaving implicit the conditions under which is it not needed. A suggestion is not a mandate- designers who can do the math know the difference. If the design flow requirements of both the system & the boiler are in the same range there is no requirement (or any real reason) for hydraulic separation.

When making the argument, please try to parse the words of Viessmann or BadgerBoilerMN a bit more carefully, lest it stop making sense.


where in my post

"these are clear guidelines for LLH
also make a note that in viessmann opinion primary secondary arrangement does promote condensing in condensing boilers, quite different from your statement."

you see words viessmann mandates?

Also see all benefits listed. Why not do it right?

And on all jobs conditions of flow in the system within parameters of boiler flow? Hard to believe. P/S guaranties trouble free performance of system and boiler. When I design systems, I do not go pennies and dimes, system must be done right, no corners cut. Eliminating P/S makes no sense whatsoever.
I do not buy into argument that 2nd pump consumes more electricity or can break. There 2 ways of doing job, right or whatever.
 
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Tom Sawyer

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Around 20 large is possible with the right crew and we have the right crew. It's the labor that usually gets you.
 

Dana

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where in my post

"these are clear guidelines for LLH
also make a note that in viessmann opinion primary secondary arrangement does promote condensing in condensing boilers, quite different from your statement."

you see words viessmann mandates?

Also see all benefits listed. Why not do it right?

And on all jobs conditions of flow in the system within parameters of boiler flow? Hard to believe. P/S guaranties trouble free performance of system and boiler. When I design systems, I do not go pennies and dimes, system must be done right, no corners cut. Eliminating P/S makes no sense whatsoever.
I do not buy into argument that 2nd pump consumes more electricity or can break. There 2 ways of doing job, right or whatever.

His statement was "Viessmann does not mandate P/S...". Your statement was that the Viessmann's document indicated something "quite different" from his statement. Quite different would mean that they in fact DO mandate P/S plumbing. Nothing in the the supplied document differs from BadgerBoilerMN's assertion- far from it. The document merely suggests where P/S might be beneficial.

Nobody was making blanket statements that direct pumping is suitable "on all jobs" either, only some.

Yet again, you bark up an empty tree, mis-stating or misconstruing the statements of others rather than parsing the actual sentences.
 

gennady

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His statement was "Viessmann does not mandate P/S...". Your statement was that the Viessmann's document indicated something "quite different" from his statement. Quite different would mean that they in fact DO mandate P/S plumbing. Nothing in the the supplied document differs from BadgerBoilerMN's assertion- far from it. The document merely suggests where P/S might be beneficial.



Quote Originally Posted by BadgerBoilerMN
QUOTE: Viessmann does not mandate P/S and one of the reasons they are one of our favorites on steam and gravity conversions. They do like to sell hydrolic separators, something trade magazines and those who write for them are sensitive to.

There is no logical argument for doubling electrical operated costs and the chance of a nuisance no-heat by adding a redundant circulator to any single zone hydronic system. The only thing this will accomplish, beyond the obvious wasted labor, material and operating cost, is to inevitably raise the return water temperature to the boiler. This is not progress where condensing boilers are concerned. END OF QUOTE
===============================
MY RESPONSE: something quite different is indicated in viessmann document. And this difference is that P/S does promote condensing in condensing boilers

and this is what i wrote in my post:
These are clear guidelines for LLH
also make a note that in viessmann opinion primary secondary arrangement does promote condensing in condensing boilers, quite different from your statement.

Again, the difference is that BadgerBoilerMN stated primary secondary is not progress where condensing boilers are concerned, and viessmann statement is that primary secondary does promote condensing in condensing boilers. you see, this is the difference

MY RESPONSE: P/S does promote condensing in condensing boilers according viessmann manual

Also if you read viessmann list of benefits, you see there are benefits in P/S, and this is quite different from the statement:
QUOTE: There is no logical argument for doubling electrical operated costs and the chance of a nuisance no-heat by adding a redundant circulator to any single zone hydronic system. END OF QUOTE

it is not just redundant pump and doubling electrical costs.
please read list of benefits.
Also Dan Hologan wrote a book, named " primary secondary pumping made easy", addressing all these benefits, you can see picture of its cover few posts earlier, read it, you might like it.
 
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