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Thread: A toto toilet for an old home with many kids

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member jkhott's Avatar
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    Default A toto toilet for an old home with many kids

    We are renovating our bathroom in our over 100 year old home. The very old toilet we currently have on our second floor sweats horribly. We have a well and don't have air condition, and there are 8 family members using this toilet throughout the day, which is why we have such a sweating problem with our water hogging toilet. Initially I thought I would need an insulated toilet, the drake, but upon reading everything on this site it sounds like sweating should no longer be a problem with the new water saving toilets. I am counting on that. I am currently considering the Toto Drake II and the Toto Ultramax II but am open to others. It looks like the Toto drake II has a better MaP score. But in real life, is their flushing capability equal? I have 6 kids. One 4 year old has a bad habit of using too much toilet paper. We currently have to plunge our toilet about once a month because of that, so i would like a good flusher. Also, do I have an equal chance with both of these toilets that I won't have sweating? And, I have never seen a one piece toilet in real life. Does the ultramax II look really neat because it's one piece? I have 4 boys that aren't the best at aiming, so the ultramax II might be easier to clean their bad aiming mishaps maybe. A basic original drake is also appealing if it performs as well as the drake ii and ultramax ii because of its really inexpensive price.

    So, could you please provide some help and suggest a drake, drake ii or ultramax ii ? Thanks so very much. Kim

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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Given all of the boys and the cleaning issues, I'd consider the Ultramax II. The toilet can still sweat if it doesn't get a chance for the water to warm up some in between. Pouring cold into cold still means cold. Cold into warm, you have a chance. It should not be anywhere near as much an issue as the old one since most of the water will come from the storage bladder tank, and hopefully, that has had a chance to warm up some, then you have the water in the pipes in the house. The bowl cleaning on the II enhancements is nice, and SanaGloss does help as things come off easily...think freshly waxed car - the surface is much smoother.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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    DIY Junior Member jkhott's Avatar
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    Do you think I should consider an insulated drake tank if I do have sweating issues? Also, would the vespin ii or the ultramax ii be better for little boys' missing aim? With one I would have a cleaner top and the other cleaner sides.....

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    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkhott View Post
    Do you think I should consider an insulated drake tank if I do have sweating issues? Also, would the vespin ii or the ultramax ii be better for little boys' missing aim? With one I would have a cleaner top and the other cleaner sides.....
    I would be curious as to what Terry has to say about this. There definitely are some installations where the insulation might be helpful. It's not a total and complete solution, just a help. I'm thinking that your situation, with the toilet getting a very significant amount of use, combined with cold well water, moist ambient air, and a currently-extreme sweating issue, might make this one circumstance where the insulation might be advisable. On the other hand, Jim makes a good point that the water should have a time to warm up, and not as much water is being used, so that might reduce the sweating somewhat just by itself. It's just hard to know without knowing how humid it is where you are (and for what part of the year in the Northeast), and how cold that well water gets. One other factor to consider is whether the usage is spaced throughout the day, or whether the timing of family activities (work, school, etc.) means that you have periods where the toilet is used in rapid succession, which would almost certainly draw some colder water into the unit, even if it is drawing a lot less water than your old unit per flush.

    I have two original Drakes, CST744S, and they are great flushers. The Drake II is going to give you a little better bowl wash than my original Drakes, and its Sanagloss is nice, but I think the pure flush capability is equal. Also, the slightly-higher bowl of the Drake II might be more of a challenge for your younger children -- just a thought. The original Drake is a high-quality, workhorse toilet that just keeps flushing and flushing -- Terry has installed it in places like restaurants, Church bathrooms and such, so it stands up to significant use and is suitable for high-traffic locations. In the 1.6 gallons per flush model, the insulated elongated would be model CST744SD. They do make an insulated tank in the 1.28gpf version, but if you're on a well, then you're not going to be looking for a rebate from your water company for the Eco version, so you may do well just to go with the model I mentioned. Should be available for around $250-ish for the tank and bowl.

    Good luck, and let us know what you decide and how it works out.

    PS It's probably worth asking this in an old house...have you measured the rough-in (distance from the finished wall -- not the baseboard -- to the center of the closet flange (i.e. usually but not always to the center of the bolts holding down the current toilet)). If it's 12", you have lots of options. In our old house, it really varies. I had one that was only about 11". The original Drake can fit on 11" no problem, which I know because I have done it; the Drake II needs more room, although not the full 12". If it's 14", which some old houses are, then you have the opposite issue of the toilet projecting too far into the room, and Toto has a singular solution to this with its skirted toilets like the Vespin II, which fit wonderfully on 10", 12" and 14" rough-ins by means of an adapter under the skirt.
    Last edited by wjcandee; 07-19-2013 at 11:21 PM.

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    The CST744SD may be the ticket all right.
    I have been selling those mainly in alaska, they have cold water too.
    You can also get that with a Sanagloss bowl, CST744SGD,
    C744EG bowl and ST743SD tank.

    As far as flush performance, it's pretty close with the 744S and the 454E
    It also may be that since you "are" using less water with the 1.28, that they may not be that much sweating if at all. You would have to be rapid firing that thing to get it that chilled.

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    DIY Junior Member jkhott's Avatar
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    Now I really don't know which to buy. We live in PA. I would guess early in the morning is when the toilet sees the most use and again at bedtime Then through out the day at times maybe two to four uses in an hour and some hours none at all. We were gone 8 hours yesterday and for once there was no sweating. Normally I have to put a towel behind the toilet. How many gallons are in the back of the tank, so how many flushes would it take to empty and refill. I have to try to measure the rough in as the above poster suggested. My husband didn't say anything about the rough in needed so I wasn't even thinking about that.
    Last edited by jkhott; 07-20-2013 at 05:31 AM.

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    DIY Junior Member jkhott's Avatar
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    I just measured from the wall to the bolts it's 12 inches. Does that mean its a 12 inch rough in? My one concern with the original drake was skid marks since it doesn't have double cyclone.

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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    If you want the skirt and a one piece, look at the Carlyle II. Street prices are a lot better than the suggested list. But, the Drake is a great toilet. The Vespin is essentially a skirted Drake, and the Carlyle is a skirted Ultramax.

    If it does sweat, there are other ways around it - a tempering valve feeding the toilet supply. It may be your best option...try one without the insulation (especially a II version which uses less water), and if you find it does sweat, add a tempering valve. Those are essentially a mixing valve - you add just enough hot to the cold going into the toilet so that it doesn't sweat. Keep in mind that even if it IS insulated, used often enough with cold water, it could still sweat. With a tempering valve, you're guaranteed it will never sweat. I'd consider running hot nearby underneath and adding the tempering valve if needed...chances are, it won't, but you'd be ready should it be needed. Or, just add one, and you can turn the hot off, if not needed. Pick the toilet style you want as it will likely be there for a long time. A tempering valve would make your existing toilet stop sweating, too.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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    DIY Junior Member jkhott's Avatar
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    I don't really want a skirted toilet as the installation would be harder. Ideally I want a drake ii or ultramax ii but don't want to have major sweating issues. I thought the mixing valve wasn't good for a second floor. I didn't realize you could still have sweating issues with an insulated toilet. Do the drake ii and ultramax ii perform identically flush wise? Do you prefer the look of one over the other? I haven't seen either in person.

  10. #10
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Mounting the Carlyle or the Vespin means drilling 4 holes. With the right tools, it takes all of a few more minutes. It should not be the deciding factor. Given your situation, I'd probably go with the Ultramax II as it's a lot easier to clean since there's no tank to allow stuff to get under. Then, in my house, I have both a Vespin and a Carlyle. The Carlyle is easier to clean. My mother has two Drakes. All older, before the II versions came out.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    There isn't a bad choice there.
    I've used them all, and once it's in place you won't have to worry about it.

    If you go skirted, we hardly think twice about the drilling. It takes us very little time.

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