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Thread: Cycle stop valve problem

  1. #31
    DIY Member Scup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigpump View Post
    Scup, i dont think your pump guy gave you a great deal. I install Franklin pumps and motors and my supplier warranties them 100% right out of the box for one year, I personally add another 4 years.

    As for a pump heating up a well.....I suppose it's possible, but here in Ct the water is 54 degrees, so it would take a hell of a lot of energy to not only heat the water but to also heat up that big mass of rock we call Mother Earth. But the last time we had this discussion I took a piece of 6" 17lb casing, welded a cap on it filled it with water and put a 1hp motor into it and turned it on. Yep, eventually the water and casing got hot, but when it got too hot the motor shut itself down, after it cooled off, it ran again for a while and then quit........ Kind of reminds me of the outfit called Aqua Freeze in New York. Their claim was that they could inject a few bottles of co2 onto a well freezing the rock which would create fractures and improve the wells yield. Can you say BS?

    I hate to say it, but we are in the pump business and although we take steps to do good installations, we rely on pump replacements to make our living. Are we any worse than the oil change places that promote oil changes every 3000 miles? How about car companies who could make cars last 500,000 miles? Or the tire companies that make tires that give up at 40,000 miles? If we stop and run the numbers, the average pump here in Ct lasts 15 yrs. it moves on average 300 gallons a day for a total of 1,642,500 gallons. Divide your pump replacement cost by that number and you have how much that water cost per gallon. In my minds eye, that is absolutely the best bargain going. So good it's damn near free!
    I agree with everything you stated. I know I could have install the pump myself, but I would have had to go down into the dug well myself with a propane torch to free up the barbed drop pipe connection five feet below grade. Being 75 years old, my family just would not let me do what I wanted to do. Believe me; it was easier to spend/waste the money, than to argue with family. However, if the pump should fail prematurely, I doubt if there will be any more future arguments.

    Just look at the mess I unintentionally stirred up between Tom and Valveman. Could not help but note Tom is from Maine and Valveman from Texas. Not to change the subject, but both places, Maine and Texas, did bring back very fond memories for me considering the large amount of time I had spent at Bath Iron works, not to mention visiting Eastport Maine via a destroyer. When the USS SAN JACINTO had to pull into Houston for Commissioning, we were treated like royalty, everything was opened up for us. I am definitely extremely fond of both places, although I would have to give an edge to those Texas girls for looks!

  2. #32
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Hey, hey, not all Maine girls have Tasmanian devil bodies lol
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  3. #33
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scup View Post
    Had this third one for two or three seasons and while it has not failed, the blower motor is overheating. It is so hot one cannot touch it.
    Thanks for the email! Yeah the same thing happens to jet pump motors. People are always worried because they are so hot you can’t touch them, and they should be worried. That is part of the planned obsolescence. The less material you put in a motor the cheaper it can be made, the hotter it will run, and the shorter its life will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by craigpump View Post
    But the last time we had this discussion I took a piece of 6" 17lb casing, welded a cap on it filled it with water and put a 1hp motor into it and turned it on. Yep, eventually the water and casing got hot, but when it got too hot the motor shut itself down, after it cooled off, it ran again for a while and then quit…
    By the time a thermal overload has shut the motor off, it is too little and too late. Once you have let the smoke out of the motor, you can never put it back in. The motor keeps running in an overheated condition until it reaches a critical temperature. That is when the thermal overload opens the circuit. By then the canned stator has swelled, and the thrust bearing pads have started to deteriorate. It will restart when it cools off, but the stator will never be the same, and the polished surface on the thrust pads are gone, so its life has been shortened considerably.

    Quote Originally Posted by craigpump View Post
    I hate to say it, but we are in the pump business and although we take steps to do good installations, we rely on pump replacements to make our living. Are we any worse than the oil change places that promote oil changes every 3000 miles?
    I appreciate your honesty. Most pump installers are salt of the earth type people and are doing the best they know how. They don’t realize the deck has already been stacked against a pump lasting a long time before they even get it. Even installing it the best way they know how, pumps are going to average 7 years no matter what they do. However, I have talked to several pump guys who tell me outright, they won’t use a CSV because it will increase the life of pumps, and they don’t like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by VAWellDriller View Post
    To do what you said you've done; you sure have gone to a LOT of trouble to do your testing!

    I know I asked this before in another post and you ignored me...tell us the details of your test....the parts that matter...which absolutely have to include:
    1) well pump installed - static wl and pumping wl ----pump depth setting;
    2) tank size for both setups including switch settings
    3) your elaborate logs you mention...the gallons/day cycles/day and you mentioned power consumption so I guess you can tell us the kw/hours used...and the pressure fluctuations.

    or is it all bs because you don't like csv's???
    Thanks VA. There are hundreds of different scenarios and usage patterns possible. Even when a test is set up to try and prove a CSV will fail, they fall on their face, like the Amtrol test years ago. They make tanks and wanted desperately to find some fatal flaw in the CSV. The best they could say was, “the CSV doesn’t appreciable decrease the number of cycles over a properly size pressure tank”. They could have said it another way like, the CSV slightly decreased the number of cycles compared to a properly sized pressure tank. But they had already shot themselves in the foot, so they had to put some kind of spin on it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reach4 View Post
    http://www.faradynemotors.com/downlo...nual_Final.pdf seems to have some interesting relevant info on pages 3 and 4.
    FREQUENCY OF STARTS
    MOTOR INSTALLATION POSITION
    MINIMUM FLOW RATES FOR PROPER MOTOR COOLING
    Thanks Reach. That is almost an exact copy of the Franklin manual. That gives me an opportunity to make some snide remarks. 

    “Frequency of Starts
    A one (1) minute minimum run cycle for pumps and motors up to 1.5 HP and two (2) minutes for 2 HP and larger motors is recommended.”

    Seems I have heard that somewhere before.

    “Motor, pressure switch, tank and pump life may be extended by limiting starts per hour and per day.”

    I think I may have said that once a long time ago.

    “Excessive or rapid cycling creates heat which can prematurely damage motors, switches and controls.”

    I wonder what could possibly Stop Cycling and prevent all that “premature damage”?

    “Motor Installation Position
    When installed in near horizontal installations, we recommend keeping starts to a minimum and maintaining back pressure (head) on the system. Even when installed vertically, operating pumps at open discharge with little or no head (to the far right of the pump curve) may create excessive upward thrust, which may damage the motor’s upward thrust bearing and internal pump parts.”

    So backpressure is a good thing? Seems like I heard that somewhere before.

    “In applications with high static water levels or little system head, a throttling valve should always be used in the discharge line to create back pressure (head) on the pump and bearing.”

    “A throttling valve should always be used”? I thought throttling was supposed to be a bad thing?

    “Maintain frequencies from 30Hz - 60Hz. Do not operate below 30Hz for more than
    1 second.”
    What this is really saying is every time the motor goes from 0 to 50% speed, some of the thrust bearing pads get rubbed off, which is just one more reason to limit the number of starts.

    “All 4" Faradyne Motors may be operated continuously in water up to 86° F. Optimum service life will be attained by maintaining a minimum water flow rate of 0.25 feet per second passing the motor. Use a Flow Sleeve if water flow rate is below 0.25 feet per second, the well is top feeding or when the pump is used in a large body of water or large tank.”

    This confirms what I said about cooling flows, large bodies of water, and flow sleeves. What was taken out of the Franklin manual a few years ago were the words, “ at full service factor load”. The .25 or .50 fps flow is only required when motors are running at full service factor amperage. When a CSV restricts the flow, the amperage decreases as well. This is called “de-rating” a motor. When the amperage is decreased, the motor doesn’t produce as much heat, and therefore doesn’t need as much cooling flow.

    Declaring 1.2 gpm as the minimum flow possible, even when used with a 4” flow inducer, is no accident, since the CSV has a 1 GPM minimum. The CSV actually de-rates the motor enough it could pump hot water without hurting it. But when pumping fairly cool water, the de-rating that the CSV causes allows the motor to be adequately cooled with as little as 2/10s of a gpm flow. Humm, I guess there is no sense in a company who likes to sell motors saying anything about “de-rating”.

    I have said before, I don’t sell valves, I teach people about pumps. When you know how pump/motors actually work, the CSV sells itself. The installation and applications pages of the motor companies own guidelines are my best sales aids when you understand what they are really saying, like in the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Thanks for the invite but if I'm going to take a trip south, Texas would be the last place I'd go.
    Why not? Texas is a very friendly place. But if you call one of us a liar, you better be able to back it up. I hope the motor companies own guidelines above have proven to you that these are well known facts. You can’t make up things like “motors stay cooler in larger casing” and just wish it to be so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    You believe you are doing the public a great service. I believe you are adding an element of confusion and selling a product that most folks don't need.
    I do believe I am doing the public a service. You are the one who is confused, and I am trying very hard to change that. I don’t do this for the money. I do it because I really like my job.

    I could go back into the pump and drilling business and make a lot more money, especially with all I know about how to shorten the life of pumps and motors. But with all my years in the pump business I know pump guys are not appreciated. Every phone call is someone mad and out of water. They are usually standing in the shower with soap in their hair and screaming at me on the phone. They don’t want to hear it will be 9 days before I can get there. They don’t want to hear that their pump system is 8 years old instead of 4 like they thought. They don’t want to hear how much I am going to charge them, and that they have to pay me before I put the pump in the hole. They don’t care that I have to make payments on a couple of million dollars worth of equipment, payroll, insurance, fuel, taxes, etc., I am still to high. They don’t appreciate that it is 20 degrees and the wind is blowing like crazy, they just want water now. Sound familiar?

    Except for arguing with the occasional disbeliever, I love my job. It is worth less salary to not be on call 24/7, or work out in the cold/hot/etc.. Every call I get is someone with a problem I can solve for not very much money. Every valve I sell, sells the next one for me. Customers tell their neighbors how good it works. Then I get a lot of calls back telling me how good the CSV is working, how it solved the problems no one else has been able to solve, how they like the pressure in the shower, and so on. You don’t get that in the pump business. I also get a kick out of stumping other engineers, who thought they already knew all there is to know. So I love my job, and I am always working, I guess you can tell.

    The CSV will make your customers happy with you as well. But first you have to understand all the benefits yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scup View Post
    Just look at the mess I unintentionally stirred up between Tom and Valveman.
    It is not a problem Scup. I am used to it. Most pump guys just end up saying “that is so simple I should have thought of it myself”. I guess some are just bitter, and will cut off their nose in spite of their face, just to prove they can do without it. I know people who are that way about computers and other stuff. Nobody wants to hear the way they have been doing things for 39 years could be greatly improved upon. I get it. Ironically these are the ones who eventually become my best customers, so I am not giving up on Tom. It took me years to wrap my head around all this. I would like to think only the REALLY smart ones would be able to figure it out any quicker than me?
    Last edited by valveman; 01-01-2014 at 05:36 PM.

  4. #34
    DIY Member Scup's Avatar
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    Valveman,

    I do not know how to read everything on the label of the box my pump came out of. It is a Franklin Electric, model 10FV05P4-2W230, 10GMP, 6SGT, PLASTIC, 1/2HP, 2-WIRE, 230V Date Code 12J22 along with some coded #s i.e. 9540 1010 and 11 00222 A, FPS Series V, and of course Product Of Mexico.

    What I do understand, is its rating and the notation "PLASTIC" as the pump has quite a bit of plastic used in its construction for which I am not sure if that is good or bad since here in CT everyone has acid water and even stainless can run into trouble depending on its grade. I am guessing that 6STG may mean six stages but it is only a guess on my part and I am really not sure if the pump is suitable for a shallow well application. I cannot read the date code, but it is of little concern to me unless someone tells me otherwise.

    The old pump was 1HP and I believe it was a TAIT (very hard to remember what went down the hole 35 years ago) and probably way too large for its application. I still have the old pump, but when we pulled it up, I would not have known it was a pump if I did not put it down there. It was covered with a tough brownish material that I could chip away at (I was trying to find its label) which my well guy told me was an Iron compound. The intake screen was better than 95% covered and I was surprised that the pump could have still kept working with so much crap on it. Have no idea of how many stages it had, but its flow rate I remember was 10 GPM. I am guessing it might have had as many as 12 stages in it and probably totally unsuited for its intended use. Talk about cycle time, I did time it when first put in and it took only 12 seconds to fill the undersized tank I had. Before it failed it was taking three times longer to fill the tank. I had thought the pump was just getting tired but with its input just about covered, the motor was more or less unloaded and only putting out a fraction of its rated horsepower.

    I do now understand, I hope, and that my water use needs were far minimal compared to what others might need. My biggest water demand I can think of is back flushing my PH tank for 12 minutes at 4 GPM once a week, and once in the blue moon use of a pressure washer (also needs 4GPM) to clean my deck or fish pots. Either way, no other fixture would be on when back flushing or pressure washing. I would doubt my shower heads put out 2 GPM @ 50PSI, if that, probably because of some governmental mandate.

    After reading this thread, I am glad that my pressure switch never got stuck in the on position because either the safety valve (hopefully) or something else would have had to bust or explode.

    I would like thank everyone that sent me private emails about the use of a pressure switch that incorporates a reset lever in the event the pressure ever drops below 20 PSI. Not only would it provide some protection in the event the well goes dry, should a catastrophic failure occur like a blown tank, the pump would be shut down instead of making my home a swimming pool.

    Thanks again guys for setting me straight; I am a bit slow, but sooner or later I will come up to speed.

  5. #35
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    I tried to reply to your email and I was blocked. So here is the content of my email to you.

    Thanks for forwarding the email. I will see what I can do with that. Also to answer the question you sent to Franklin, no a Pumptec will not work with a CSV. They see a 25% drop in amps and think the well is dry when it is only the CSV making the amps drop. That is why we designed the Cycle Sensor. See this link. http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_sensor.html

    It does the same thing as a Pumtec, but is infinitely adjustable so it will work with a CSV. We also believe it works better than a Pumtec as it has fewer nuisance faults.


    Tait pumps used to be a couple blocks over from my shop when they were still in business back in the 70’s. I am sure it had plastic impellers as well, as that is about when they started using plastic instead of brass.

    Your new 10FV05 means it is a 10 GPM, ½ HP. You don’t have any choice about the plastic impellers anymore. Your only other option is REALLY thin Stainless Steel, which won’t last any longer than the plastic.

    A little $8 pressure relief valve is the best protection against a pressure switch sticking closed. The low-pressure cut-off pressure switches work well for a break in the line, but they usually have to be manually reset after each power outage, which can be a nuisance.

    The Cycle Sensor I mentioned is more reliable for protecting the pump against dry run because it looks at amps instead of pressure. And it will reset itself automatically when the power comes back on. But it will not shut off the pump if there is a broken line, unless the broken line causes the well to run dry.

  6. #36
    DIY Member Scup's Avatar
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    Thank you, for answering the question that Franklin never did answer! The only reason I wrote to them was to find out if their (fairly expensive) pump protection box would work with a SCV system. I suspected, like you stated, that the operating current would go all over over the place and likely fool the "pumptec" box; starting to think that it may have been likely that Franklin knew it too, which is why they did not respond to my question.

    I really think I like the idea of having the power cut off to the pump and not coming back on automatically, if there should ever be only 20 psi. If the pressure should ever drop that low, something is very wrong somewhere, and I want to be in the loop to figure out what went wrong before placing the system back in operation for my family.

    Sorry your email got bounced, but it was not done at my end. I suspect you might have a missed a character in the address of something, but no matter, as I have read your reply above, and will visit the link suggested.

  7. #37
    DIY Member Scup's Avatar
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    OK valveman, I went to the link suggested! Not sure if you would wish for me to discuss my needs on this form, or just shoot you an email since probably my needs are rather unique to me. In any event, being a moderator I would assume you could blank out anything I might say that is not proper.

    I like the idea of the PK1A pside-kick kit with its stainless valve and fitting, since right now I am really pissed off at some of the premature PEX brass fittings failures happening ahead of my PH tank (This subject was discussed on another one of your forms).

    The second reason is I have a rather cramped situation in that my basement that is finished and the only place left to put a pressurized water tank is under a stairwell that takes a right angle turn. Amptrol recommends for my situation their WX-205 tank (34 gallons), which would be impossible to fit in the space. The next size smaller will not fit in there either. With a shoe horn I might be able get their 26 gal tank in but would really not look forward to putting the tank in while being a contortionist.

    I looked at your CS1PH1-2HP 230V and was impressed with its description but just a few minor things, and probably stupid items, I would like some clarification on.
    1. Is there a cover that goes with this box? I am planning to install it under the stairwell where I can see it but would not like to have any 5 year old get curious and start to investigate say the sound of the clicking pressure switch. The space is open such that any tot that wishes to wander in could.

    2. I am not questioning you about the superiority of your CS1PH1 over that of a low pressure cutoff switch should the well run dry, but my brass PEX fittings has given me other concerns since sooner later they will have to be replaced. I look at these fittings like they are small time bombs waiting to go off. I would like to know if I can get one of those low pressure cutoff switches with the CS1PH1 (extra charge is fine), or would this combination defeat something that I am not aware of.

    The price of the CS1PH1 was lower than I had expected; about a third of the Pumptec Plus cost.

    While my concerns might seem silly to you, I am an electrical engineer and have been with the navy for decades and I will always take precedence of a simple mechanical device providing catastrophic protection over an electronic device, especially where water in involved.

    Look at it this way, in the event a 1" PEX fitting fails catastrophically, spews water all over the CS1PH1, I would want something mechanical in the loop that will positively shut down the flowing water even if the CS1PH1 was taken out.

    Now you know why I probably did not want to air my concerns on this form because of the possibility of making myself look like an idiot, but in 1963 when I first started to work for the Navy, we lost the USS Thresher for the very reason described above.
    Last edited by Scup; 01-03-2014 at 09:50 AM.

  8. #38
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scup View Post
    I like the idea of the PK1A pside-kick kit with its stainless valve and fitting, since right now I am really pissed off at some of the premature PEX brass fittings failures happening ahead of my PH tank (This subject was discussed on another one of your forms).

    The second reason is I have a rather cramped situation in that my basement that is finished and the only place left to put a pressurized water tank is under a stairwell that takes a right angle turn. Amptrol recommends for my situation their WX-205 tank (34 gallons), which would be impossible to fit in the space. The next size smaller will not fit in there either. With a shoe horn I might be able get their 26 gal tank in but would really not look forward to putting the tank in while being a contortionist.
    Yeah that is one good advantage of the Pside-Kick kit. It comes with the Stainless Steel CSV1A valve and fittings. It also only needs and comes with a 4.5 gallon size tank, which can fit most any place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scup View Post
    I looked at your CS1PH1-2HP 230V and was impressed with its description but just a few minor things, and probably stupid items, I would like some clarification on.

    Is there a cover that goes with this box? I am planning to install it under the stairwell where I can see it but would not like to have any 5 year old get curious and start to investigate say the sound of the clicking pressure switch. The space is open such that any tot that wishes to wander in could.
    Another good question. The Cycle Sensor needs to be installed in an enclosure. We can supply a little Nema 4X box with a clear lid if you like. That way you can see the display without opening the box. But you could put the Cycle Sensor in any electrical enclosure that you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scup View Post
    I am not questioning you about the superiority of your CS1PH1 over that of a low pressure cutoff switch should the well run dry, but my brass PEX fittings has given me other concerns since sooner later they will have to be replaced. I look at these fittings like they are small time bombs waiting to go off. I would like to know if I can get one of those low pressure cutoff switches with the CS1PH1 (extra charge is fine), or would this combination defeat something that I am not aware of.
    I use a regular Low Pressure Cut off switch in combination with the Cycle Sensor. I rely on the Cycle Sensor for the Dry Well and Rapid Cycle protection. I use the low pressure cut off switch strictly for protection from major line breaks. The only problem with this set up is if the leak is not major enough to cause a low pressure condition. If that is a concern there are leak detection systems that could also be incorporated with the Cycle Sensor and the Low pressure Cut Off Pressure Switch.

  9. #39
    DIY Member Scup's Avatar
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    I am not particularly worried about a so so leak as much as when one of my pex fittings failed completely. Good thing I was there to shut the pump off before really serious damage was done. I do have those battery operated water alarms scattered all over the place like just under the hot water tank's drip pan, Ph tank area, washing machine, existing water pressure tank and even one under the kitchen sink. So far the annoying beep, beep, beep, alarm sounding has been good enough to alert me of a potential disaster in the making. True, one has to be there to hear the alarm but so far that had been good enough. When the catastrophic PEX fitting let go, I was first alerted to a slow leak by the alarm, and when I touched the PEX fitting to see where the leak was coming from, the whole shebang let go. The fitting actually came completely apart yet the PEX piping was still secure to the broken/corroded brass fitting.

    I will tell you this, you have some pretty sharp members on this form. They not only told me what the problem was, but gave me a link that described just how widespread this nonsense is of using too much zinc in brass fittings.

    I do not think in a million years I would ever have liked to have been a plumber; work your butt off doing a job right, then get caught up in legal litigation because manufacturers supplied defective products. Even now, not all manufacturers have admitted to any wrong doing in this matter!

    When I am ready, I will shoot you an email as to what I want, but I am planning to do this job in the springtime when I can head off to a local plumbing supply house should anything else be needed. Right now, the temperature outside is heading down to below zero, the wind blew my storm door off its hinges, and I am totally knocked out keeping my home warm during this vicious cycle of really nasty cold stormy weather. At least the Global Warming crowd has now finally shut up!

  10. #40
    DIY Senior Member craigpump's Avatar
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    You can wire those alarms to an automatic valve that will shut the water off if you ever get a leak.

  11. #41
    DIY Member Scup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigpump View Post
    You can wire those alarms to an automatic valve that will shut the water off if you ever get a leak.
    Never thought that was possible. These cheapo water alarm sensors that I have are barely more than toys at less than $15 a pop. The 9 volt battery lasts around 5 years before needing replacement. These alarms can actually float if there is a real flood and can keep on working. They are sensitive though, and do seem to be reliable. However, there is no way that I can see where one could wire anything to the toy like ones I have.

    Still, I could see where one could have a decent water sensor designed to shut a valve off either by being directly wired or perhaps even via telemetry (RF signal) thus being wireless.

    Craigpump, since all I am doing right now is trying to keep warm (successfully so far), would you have a web site that I could read up on the operation of these automatic valves that you mentioned?
    Last edited by Scup; 01-03-2014 at 11:17 PM.

  12. #42
    DIY Senior Member craigpump's Avatar
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    The system I have seen used is available on Floodmaster.com, and is set up to shut down the water supply at the tank.

  13. #43
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigpump View Post
    The system I have seen used is available on Floodmaster.com, and is set up to shut down the water supply at the tank.

    That does look like a nice system.

    The pressure switch that I have has the lever to turn the pump off, without flipping the breaker.

    Best just to turn it Off, unless a babysitter is home. They called that a wife in the day.

    You really should kill power to the water heater too.


    I use the floating leak detectors that send SOS in Morse code. And I hate it when one goes off. lol
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

  14. #44
    DIY Member Scup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigpump View Post
    The system I have seen used is available on Floodmaster.com, and is set up to shut down the water supply at the tank.
    Thank you, now I have something to look into after the playoff games!

  15. #45
    DIY Senior Member craigpump's Avatar
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    Any predictions?

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