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Thread: Toilet flange dilemma

  1. #16
    DIY Junior Member Jayw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjcandee View Post
    IF that's 3", does he have enough room to cut it and do an outside-fit? Allegedly, there's a lot of room around the pipe... Isn't there a Sioux Chief that's like 3 OR 4; i.e. the same one goes inside 4 or outside 3?
    After cutting could I not chisel around pipe to give me clearance for a regular outside fit flange? How much distance or rather depth is needed to seat flange?
    Last edited by Jayw; 07-04-2013 at 06:59 PM. Reason: Change

  2. #17
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Question: Is there or is there not tile and concrete under the screw holes on the existing flange? It looks like it's mounted on top of the finished floor, like it's supposed to be, but just isn't secured through the finished floor to the subfloor like it's supposed to be. I.e. is there a reason that you can't just just bolt it down through the tile into the concrete?

    Or am I mistaken and the hole around the pipe actually is so wide that it comes outside the screw holes on the flange? If that's the case, then I don't think you'd need to chisel to get an outside-fit on there.

    But, assuming that I am continuing to miss stuff (as I was earlier), the simple answer is, "Yes, if you need more room you can chisel."
    Last edited by wjcandee; 07-04-2013 at 07:17 PM.

  3. #18
    DIY Junior Member Jayw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjcandee View Post
    IF that's 3", does he have enough room to cut it and do an outside-fit? Allegedly, there's a lot of room around the pipe... Isn't there a Sioux Chief that's like 3 OR 4; i.e. the same one goes inside 4 or outside 3?
    Quote Originally Posted by wjcandee View Post
    Question: Is there or is there not tile and concrete under the screw holes on the existing flange? It looks like it's mounted on top of the finished floor, like it's supposed to be, but just isn't secured through the finished floor to the subfloor like it's supposed to be. I.e. is there a reason that you can't just just bolt it down through the tile into the concrete?

    Or am I mistaken and the hole around the pipe actually is so wide that it comes outside the screw holes on the flange? If that's the case, then I don't think you'd need to chisel to get an outside-fit on there.


    But, assuming that I am continuing to miss stuff (as I was earlier), the simple answer is, "Yes, if you need more room you can chisel."
    I took another pic from side view but Iam on i phone and not sure how to upload. But the flange is not on the tile surface nor anchored ( 1/2 inch gap on high side 1/4 inch on low side ) and it seems there is room around pipe ( or at least i can cut a bit of tile once flange lip is gone to access concrete to chisel if necessary ) so if i cut pipe will i not need to chisel a 1/4 wide 1/2 deep moat ( novice plumbing vernacular! ) around pipe to allow room for outside fit ?

    If it wasn't for all the grief my wife was giving me this plumbing stuff is kinda fun.

    Kinda!

  4. #19
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Yes, you need room around the outside of the PIPE if you use a 'normal' flange that goes over the pipe. But, if what's there now is glued to the outside of the pipe, getting it off can be a real problem. I think that's why Terry suggested using one that fits inside the pipe rather than outside of the pipe. Normally, they only suggest doing that with a 4" pipe, since the result is still bigger than a 3", but putting it into a 3" means the funnel is now about 2.5". Depending on the trap and layout of the toilet, that could be a problem. For example, if you look at the side of some AS toilets (and some others including Kohler's), you'll see that the toilet's outlet does an almost 90-degree turn right at the outlet. On a bigger hole, it has room to turn, block that off with an inside fitting flange on a 3" pipe, and its a point of restriction. On a toilet that turns before the flange interface, it's likely not an issue. So, depends on the toilet you have whether it's a potential problem.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  5. #20
    DIY Junior Member Jayw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjcandee View Post
    IF that's 3", does he have enough room to cut it and do an outside-fit? Allegedly, there's a lot of room around the pipe... Isn't there a Sioux Chief that's like 3 OR 4; i.e. the same one goes inside 4 or outside 3?
    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    Yes, you need room around the outside of the PIPE if you use a 'normal' flange that goes over the pipe. But, if what's there now is glued to the outside of the pipe, getting it off can be a real problem. I think that's why Terry suggested using one that fits inside the pipe rather than outside of the pipe. Normally, they only suggest doing that with a 4" pipe, since the result is still bigger than a 3", but putting it into a 3" means the funnel is now about 2.5". Depending on the trap and layout of the toilet, that could be a problem. For example, if you look at the side of some AS toilets (and some others including Kohler's), you'll see that the toilet's outlet does an almost 90-degree turn right at the outlet. On a bigger hole, it has room to turn, block that off with an inside fitting flange on a 3" pipe, and its a point of restriction. On a toilet that turns before the flange interface, it's likely not an issue. So, depends on the toilet you have whether it's a potential problem.
    How deep is the seat of the flange on the pipe? 1/2inch?

    Will the inside cutter go through pipe then flange then bite into concrete a bit to pull glued assemble out??? Never used one... Then chisel moat then Iam back to what I should have been ? And if cutter doesn't work will dremel with appropriate bit?

    Like the idea of lowering pipe to sit flange on tile ( like it should have been in first place ! ) and retaining 3" clearance.
    Last edited by Jayw; 07-04-2013 at 07:56 PM. Reason: Change

  6. #21
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    This is not the optimal video, because the guy never shuts up and spends the first two minutes giving you a tour of his favorite drills, toolbox, blah, blah, blah, and then attaches the thing to a 12 foot pole and wonders why it wobbles a bit...

    BUT... this does prove that there's a YouTube video for everything:


  7. #22
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    This is one of those things where you have to be there to see exactly what you have. A properly done joint on pvc is solvent welded - the cement literally melts the plastic on both the pipe and the fitting, and when the solvents evaporate, it essentially becomes one piece. It can be difficult to remove a fitting from around the pipe without damaging it radically. Not saying it can't be done, but you may have difficulty as a first-timer (and some pros won't attempt it, either). As an aside, this is not true when trying to reuse say a hub...they make a simple tool to bore out the pipe from the inside of a hub so you can then install a new pipe. I've never tried it, but if you got a holesaw sized to fit just over the pipe and maybe a second one screwed onto the mandrel that just fit inside the pipe to act as a guide, you might be able to use that to ream off the toilet flange. The friction may be problematic, and if the guide came off, maybe a big problem! Brute force would have you cracking concrete, cutting the pipe deep enough to install a coupling and a short riser, then the new flange. I think there's some middle ground. But, depending on the toilet you have, if it's internal structure has the turn such that things are not still trying to turn to get into the drain, an inside fitting flange would work. Unless the toilet is skirted, you usually can just look at it from the side and see how the internal passages are routed.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  8. #23
    DIY Junior Member Jayw's Avatar
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    Took Terry's advise and simply cut the flange off ( 4 inch grinder on a down ward slice too pipe ) pulled off in small sections and put in inner flange, fit no prob to tile. Iam an over thinker to the max. Lol

    Hope the smaller diameter is ok ... going to buy toilet with jet engine flush ( any recommondations? ). Told family that basement toilet is for "mild" # 2's. lol.

    New shower thread coming soon ! Lol

  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    A good solid performer in the gravity toilet lines is the original Toto Drake, CST744S, street price about $225. Great flush, high quality china, decent looking, reliable. I have two of them and love them. I also have a fancier Toto that we like as well. For another hundred, you can get the Drake II with double-cyclone flush for better bowl wash, Sanagloss coating for easier cleaning, universal height so you sit a little higher. That one is CST454CEFG.

    Best way to find these is to call a local plumbing supply place with the model number and color (both whites, Cotton White and Colonial White (which is a little more ivory) can be had for the prices I quoted, but you may have to call around. Each one is a pretty-easy install, but read the instructions and the thread stickied at the top here to make sure you get it right.

    Let us know how it goes.

  10. #25
    DIY Junior Member Jayw's Avatar
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    Well finally got back to project after busy summer...secured inner flange to tile, bought a kohler cimarron, installed fine, good flush but then trouble. I have the shower pipe exposed ( cause thats next job ) and when I flushed toliet, waste water came out shower pipe...Iam not a plumber but I think that's a problem! Lol.

    I think i should call in plumber to have a look and give proper paid for advise!

    Sink is now slow draining too. Not sure if its all vented proper.

  11. #26
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    You may just need to make sure the drains are clear.
    A snake may help with that.

    Many of the new bowls will flush with more oompf!

  12. #27
    DIY Junior Member Jayw's Avatar
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    The shower and sink don't have vents. It was never a problem before with the old toliet but since I put this one on it is back flowing to shower. At the time it was done 20 yrs ago i was told ( by a diy'er not a licenced plumber... First mistake!!!) the shower could tie into the toilet ( 1 1/2 abs shower too 3 inch TY for toliet ) to the main stack in the floor. From what I can remember.

    Is that ok? Where should the vent for the shower go? The run from the shower drain too toliet is about 5 feet and the toliet to the main stack tie in is about 2.5 feet

  13. #28
    DIY Junior Member Jayw's Avatar
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    Flushing the toilet causes the trap in the shower to gurgle. Would it be due to a stronger flush with new toilet?

  14. #29
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Possibly, but it could also be that the venting is inadequate or there's a partial blockage in the main drain line.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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