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Thread: New water softener programming/setting.

1. Originally Posted by lifespeed
But you would have to confirm your particular tannins can be treated with chlorine.

And thanks, the rest makes sense. Would it hurt anything for me to drop down to 6 lb per ft, from the 9?

It looks like it would cost around the following for the chlorine/tank/GAC system
Carbon backwash filtration system: 575
Pump: 460
15 g Tank: \$120

Are there any other components I would need if I decided to go that route?

2. Contact tank, maybe?

3. Originally Posted by 311hemi
Compensated hardness = 24 (I set this)
K of capacity = 37 x 1000
Salt dose = 9
Gallons between regens = 1541
Day override = 5 (I set this)

Over the past 9 days (since the softener was installed), we have not used over 95 gallons in a day with my family of 4. And only 2-3 of those were over 90. Other days were 55-70 gallons total.

Based on this, and entering a hardness of 10 and iron level of 3.6 on your formula, family of 4 using 30 gallons each....I get a daily grains requirement of 2928.

27328 is the Total Grains of Capacity you need for approximately once per week regeneration with a 24 hr reserve. 1.5 is the minimum cubic foot size of softener required for your capacity needs.

Salt dose = 8
Capacity = 27300
Days between regen = 8

If you have 2.0 ppm or more of iron, you may want to regenerate every 3-4 days. If so divide the numbers you just produced by 2. Round each up/down, they are your salt dose and capacity figures. Then you will Calender Override the control at day 4.
8/2 = 4
27300/2 = 13650

So I want to set my capacity at 13650 and the salt dose at 4, and day override at 4?
3.6 rounded is 4, times 4 = 16 + 10 = 26 gpg compensated hardness. 3.6 * 4= 14.4 + 10= 24.4 rnd to 25. I'd use the 26. If I weren't concerned about fat in my diet, I'd leave a little on the steak but if I was, I'd take some of the steak with the fat trimming. Or, I wouldn't be eating steak. 2928 * 5 = 14,640 which = 15K. 15,000 / 26 = 576 gallons. 575 / 95 = 6 days (but that is not the 30 gals/per/day you mentioned) and I'd calendar override at day 5. IF you use 30 gals * 4= 120 * 26 = 3120 per day. 3120* 5 = 15600 = 16K, 16000 / 25 = 615 gals ad 615 / - 5 days and I'd override day 6. Now you should know how to do this manually instead of using my calculator. 16,000 / by 2500 grains lb salt efficiency = 6.4 lbs rnd to 7 lbs.

My customers have done this for their iron content as far back as 1988 and in areas with iron as high as 5 ppm being very common and 2 or 3 online customers with SST-60 resin did it on up to 13 ppm of iron. Online customers were all across the US and Canada, from Puerto Rico to Alaska. Local customers were in central PA from the NY line to Harrisburg and east/west 80-100 miles of the west branch of the Susquehanna river. Many had high iron, H2S, some had methane, many had Coliform and/or different types of reducing bacteria and hardness (record was 136 gpg), high TDS, sulfates, nitrates and/or low pH acidic water.

Many giving "advice" here are anti DIY and/or only have experience with their own water, or have never sold to people with high iron or, have insisted on selling a filter ahead of their softeners IF they even sell to the end user.

Micro managing a softener to save a couple lbs of salt per regeneration can be seen as paranoid, read dumb, IF you are trying to use a softener to remove iron instead of buying an iron filter (etc.) to get rid of the iron before the softener.

If this were me or you were my prospective customer, I would be going with, or telling you, no pretreatment and to faithfully use a 1/2 cup dry measure of Iron Out (or Super IO) dissolved into say 2-3 gallons of water and pour that down into the water in the brine well in the salt tank and do a manual regeneration once every 6 weeks. You can afford to do that for like 15-20 years with the savings of what a correctly sized iron filter would cost you.

If you do this and have problems, remember the meter on your valve is not all that accurate and you should be using a more realistic volume of water like 60 gals/ person/day. And then do 2 manual regens (with the IO) with no water use between or during the 2 and do both of them at 23 lbs of salt (15lbs/cuft) so you regenerate all the resin bed. Then redo your programming based on the higher water usage.

4. Water softeners use salt to regenerate. Many areas in California, Texas, Michigan, Connecticut, Massachusetts and many more to come are in place because of poorly designed and wasteful installations of traditional water softeners. Using a softener to remove iron is a prime example of this. Yes it works, and sure it only costs a few dollars per year. It is also going to cause the softener bans to grow. Alternative iron removal methods have very little environmental impact.

When a softener regenerates, that salt is disposed of into the sewer or into a septic system which will eventually enter a stream, river lake, or underground aquafier. Unless you are on an ocean water discharge system, properly applied and designed equipment should be installed. Even if you have an ocean water discharge municipality, a good case can still be made for efficiently designed equipment. Using a softener for iron removal is the way we used to do it. Companies that have a genuine interest in not getting ourselves regulated out of business will promote modern technologies that are far more efficient.

Some people who give advice here have no certifications, licenses, insurance, or any long term interest in the affects our actions now will have on our industry in the future. Ultimately it is the homeowners choice, for now. In a growing number of areas, that choice has been taken away because of companies promoting antiquated designs, and inefficient methods in order to save a few dollars in the short term.

5. Based on the experience I listed above, very few people with the amount of iron we are discussing here were on municipal sewers, the vast majority had their own on site septic system and NONE of that water went into a stream, river lake, aquafier etc. etc..

Also, the fact is that the vast majority of water treatment equipment dealers are not required to have certifications, licenses, insurance and to be in business and not have insurance is dumb.

Ditto.... is it true that about the only place to get any type of certification is the Water Quality Association? Also, is it true that you only sell to places like plumbing/pump/well driller type supply houses, factory reps and some distributors etc. and not to the end user?

Is it true you are anti DIYer and anti dealer that sells to them and especially online dealers? How about you being anti Clack?

6. What difference does it make if Ditto does sell to distributers and not the end user? His information is still valid and from past experience it appears as though he has given an awful lot of useful and relevent advice. Not really sure where you get this whole anti DIY thing from. Maybe time to re-fill the meds LOL

7. Water from a septic tank magically disappears... it does not ever re-enter the water supplies... LOL,

And considering the videos I have posted and the advice I give on this site, not sure where the anti-DIY comes from either. I am pro-proffessional, and I beleive not every project is a DIY item, especially if the people are not willing to invest in the necessary tools and time to do it right.

As to the "only place to get certification" huh??? WQA is one of many places that do certifications, it is also one of the most recognized. I am also Steam Boiler licensed, Contrator Licensed, a certified water specialist level VI, a certified installer, etc. Tom is a licensed contractor, so why are these certifications bad? All of these require continuing education in our specific field.

Anti-Clack??? LOL, I like Clack, Fleck, Autotrol, Kinetico, Culligan, etc. I appreicate Clacks move to get rid of their system from being sold by companies online that are bad. Unfrotunately, in order to get rid of the few bad apples, all of the online sales had to go. Kinetico, Culligan, etc have all done this for years.

I have to agree with Tom, get over to Walgreens quickly.

8. Originally Posted by ditttohead
Water from a septic tank magically disappears... it does not ever re-enter the water supplies... LOL,
It does not go directly into an "aquafier", if it did the septic system couldn't be able to be used. The drain field water goes through X feet of earth before it gets to the water table. If the water table is too high, a 'sand mound' type septic system is required to provide that X feet of depth or no normal on site septic system is allowed. The water table is not necessarily an "aquafier".

Originally Posted by ditttohead
And considering the videos I have posted and the advice I give on this site, not sure where the anti-DIY comes from either. I am pro-proffessional, and I beleive not every project is a DIY item, especially if the people are not willing to invest in the necessary tools and time to do it right.
You're demonstrating quite the ego there!

I don't see you saying you are PRO DIYER. I can't recall ever seeing you say that you are PRO DIYER either. I have said for a couple years you are here more to serve the non internet, brick'n stick store type dealers, and there ya go saying just that. Thank you.

Originally Posted by ditttohead
As to the "only place to get certification" huh???
Now there you go lying about what I asked you.... which was "Ditto.... is it true that about the only place to get any type of certification is the Water Quality Association?".

Originally Posted by ditttohead
WQA is one of many places that do certifications, it is also one of the most recognized. I am also Steam Boiler licensed, Contrator Licensed, a certified water specialist level VI, a certified installer, etc. Tom is a licensed contractor, so why are these certifications bad? All of these require continuing education in our specific field.
A... we were talking residential....

Where have you seen me say certification is bad?

Certification is only required in a very few cities/states; you being from California, I have no doubt that you must have some of those others but I know you are not required to have WQA certification. Anyone going for WQA or more did so on their own and IMO usually do it for personal marketing purposes so they can dazzle local prospects.

In this case it's a DIYer forum... Usually DIYers that have had contact with local dealers say they haven't been impressed in a good way.

In this DIYer forum and thread, 311hemi, a rather handy DIYer, obviously wants to save money by using a softener to treat his water without adding an iron filter.

I doubt he will be doing anything illegal or harmful to himself, his family or anyone else if he does that yet, you and others have done your best to convince him not to do it. That begs my asking WHY when all he wants is to know if it can it be done and, it is not over his ability to program his softener to be able to accomplish his goal.

Originally Posted by ditttohead
Anti-Clack??? LOL, I like Clack, Fleck, Autotrol, Kinetico, Culligan, etc. I appreicate Clacks move to get rid of their system from being sold by companies online that are bad. Unfrotunately, in order to get rid of the few bad apples, all of the online sales had to go. Kinetico, Culligan, etc have all done this for years.
Yes anti Clack valves. You are constantly saying Clack valve are good BUT... this'er that Fleck is a better valve. Last I looked at your company web site I couldn't find Clack valves being sold.

You must not be aware of Clack's contract that called for them to police their distributors if their dealers were not doing right by their customers. That included local and internet dealers.

Originally Posted by ditttohead
I have to agree with Tom, get over to Walgreens quickly.
See and there you go again with the personal stuff.

9. LOL, you always make for a good laugh.

10. Originally Posted by Gary Slusser
3.6 rounded is 4, times 4 = 16 + 10 = 26 gpg compensated hardness. 3.6 * 4= 14.4 + 10= 24.4 rnd to 25. I'd use the 26. If I weren't concerned about fat in my diet, I'd leave a little on the steak but if I was, I'd take some of the steak with the fat trimming. Or, I wouldn't be eating steak. 2928 * 5 = 14,640 which = 15K. 15,000 / 26 = 576 gallons. 575 / 95 = 6 days (but that is not the 30 gals/per/day you mentioned) and I'd calendar override at day 5. IF you use 30 gals * 4= 120 * 26 = 3120 per day. 3120* 5 = 15600 = 16K, 16000 / 25 = 615 gals ad 615 / - 5 days and I'd override day 6. Now you should know how to do this manually instead of using my calculator. 16,000 / by 2500 grains lb salt efficiency = 6.4 lbs rnd to 7 lbs.

If you do this and have problems, remember the meter on your valve is not all that accurate and you should be using a more realistic volume of water like 60 gals/ person/day. And then do 2 manual regens (with the IO) with no water use between or during the 2 and do both of them at 23 lbs of salt (15lbs/cuft) so you regenerate all the resin bed. Then redo your programming based on the higher water usage.
Bringing this back up just to review.

Currently my system is set to everything I mentioned on the first page. It's a 1.5 cu/ft softener.
Kcap is currently at: 37000
Salt/regen:9 (I believe this means 6 lb/ft3, correct)
Day override:5

I recently looked at my water usage for the past 60 days, and I only had a small number of days above 100 gallons, with the max reaching 140 gallons one of those day. Either way, I am going to get my water tested again to see what things are looking like now that I have been up and running for 9 months or so. I don't think I have any issues going on.....but just more following up and wanting to understand what things I may change. I am putting in 1/4 cup of RO on top of every 40 lb of salt I fill into the tank. At every fill I am also doing a manual backwash with 1 cup RO diluted in 1/2 gallons of water.

When you say to possibly reprogram based on higher water usage, what does reprogramming specifically involve?

Based on water use of 60g/person, I would have a total of 240 gallons per day. With compensated hardness at 26, I get a total of 6240 grains/day.

6240x5 days= 31200k. Round that up to 32000k.
32000/26=1230 gallons
1230 gallons - 240 = 990 gallons (what do I do with this?)
32000k/3333=9.6 (what do I do with this? Do I set the dose per regen at 15)

Do I actually go into the valve and program:
k-cap: If so to what? (32000?)
Salt dose/regen: If so to what? (15 per regen)?
Day override: 5
any other actual settings I would change before doing the 2 manual regens as listed above?

11. I'll wait until you post the test results, hopefully they are before and after the softener but are you happy with the water quality the softener is producing?

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