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Thread: sizing a new gas boiler and indirect water heater

  1. #16
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    It's not undersized piping, but long runs or radiation with more pumping head. It's legitimate to have radiation flow & delta-T requirements that differ from those of the boiler. The boiler manufacturers remain agnostic of those other system requirements, and can't assume.

    Most single-zone systems COULD be done with a single pump, but not always the one that came pre-installed with the boiler (even though many or even most would still be fine.) But you DO need to do the math on the system to know for sure, a skill that has gone over the heads of too many "heetin' an' plummin' " boiler installers, contractors of the ilk who would recommend a 150KBTU/hr boiler for a house with a sub-25KBTU/hr design day heat load.

    Given the facts about the average design expertise of the installers, it's no surprise that some manufacturers automatically void the warranty if it isn't plumbed P/S. (But apparently Burnham allows those who can do the math to show off their skills!)

  2. #17
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    I really do not get the link you are making between over sizing the boiler and P/S piping. Correct me if I m wrong, but you stating that P/S piping needed only when boiler is oversized?

  3. #18
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    The only link between the oversizing and the P/S piping is plumbers who can't even do even a napkin math heat load to make a better guess on the sizing, and recommend something 5-6x the actual heat load. (OK, so they got the order of magnitude right, it wasn't 10x oversized! :-) ) Those guys are clearly not be capable of determining whether & when P/S was appropriate, but that's who is out there installing boilers en masse.

    The gpm of the boiler's flow requirements may be larger with bigger out put boilers but that isn't what I was getting at- the dearth of design skill among the general boiler installer population was the point.

  4. #19
    DIY Junior Member cyruspinkney's Avatar
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    Default similar boat...hoping not to sink before I set sail

    Excellent information, as always, from this forum. I, myself, am in a very similar position; as I've spent months pouring over this forum and speaking with plumbers & mechanical professionals, I am about ready to make my purchase of a boiler and indirect water heater. I was interested by @Dana 's point regarding P/S piping as I am now logistically planning my retrofit and second guessing the necessity of a P/S layout. For disclosure, I am an architect and seasoned DIY who is intending to do most of the install, with a reasonable amount of assistance from a specialist (when he's available that is). I have calculated my heat loss (67-70k) on a average-to-below-average insulated (for now) home; also, my total output of cast iron rad emitters is around 80k (thanks). These calcs put me in nice comfy range of options and I thought it was interesting that there was not much debate over which manufacturer the OP should use, as it seems almost a forgone conclusion that his selection of a Burnham, an Alpine specifically, is indisputable. Around here (northern NJ) we have spec'd a lot of Weil Mclain mod/cons (as well as a few Naviens that we'd like to forget) and I was curious about a few things:

    1. How do the WM Ultras (or even Ecos as researched has produced) stack up against the Burnham? I'd be very interested in installing an Alpine over an Ultra if it performs better for a minimal price difference.
    2. I am probably staying away from the WM Eco, as they seem to be the entry-level mod/con and I'd rather not put that in my home personally, but might spec it for some budgeted jobs. Any thoughts on them?
    3. I will be replacing the original oil fueled boiler, which also provides my DHW, and have received mixed answers on whether or not I should up-size the boiler for the IDHWH. At this moment, there are only two of us in this 1700sf home in zip 07044, with only (1) full bath (although another, currently out of order full bath will also be utilized in the coming years). Should I bump up the size of the boiler? Should I instead increase the IDHWH tank to a 40g-ish instead of my originally intended 30g?
    4. Also, regarding the P/S, I am in the midst of doing some inventory of the existing system to calculate volume, pipe sizing, etc. and am concerned how much time I should spend on calculating head loss. I didn't give it much thought originally, but it appears that i shouldn't be taking that lightly. Does anyone have any further recommendation of what else I should be assessing of my existing system before I attack this full-on?

  5. #20
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    A heat load of 67-70K at the ~ 10F 99% outside design temp in 07044 implies either a very large house or essentially zero insulation, and single-pane glass only (no storms.) At 1700' of conditioned space that's 40BTU per square foot, and INSANE heat load ratio for a house that size (unless it were in Fairbanks AK or Whitehorse Yukon.) A house that size built to IRC 2009 code minimums would typically have a heat load under 25K, sometimes under 20K, but even barely insulated homes that size with storm windows, and doors that actually closed would still usually be under 55K. I'm curious as to how the heat load calculation was made, and what you used for indoor & outdoor design temps?

    Unless you kept the place at 50F all the time or use a wood-stove or something for half your heat, a "K-factor" stamped on a mid or late winter oil fill (or the exact dates & volumes between two fill ups so we can look up the heating degree day data) would usually be enough information to calculate a realistic upper bound on the true heat load, as outlined earlier in this thread. Short of that, I=B=R spreadsheets based on construction are easy to do and a good place to start.

    NEVER upsize a boiler for the DHW load- it will lead to lower average efficiency, and sometimes lower comfort, and with mod-cons can create short-cycling issues when serving smaller low-mass zones. Rather than heating hot water with an embedded coil, use an indirect tank (zoned priority), and size the TANK for the hot water load. This gets to be a problem with luxury showers with a gushing waterfall and six sidesprays, but there are usually ways around that too.

    The aluminum heat exchangers on the Ultra's have been an issue for some- you can't ignore the pH of your system water or you can end up having to replace it in short years, but they're pretty good boilers in most respects. The Burnham Alpine heat exchanger is made of stainless steel, which is somewhat less sensitive. Triangle Tube and Peerless have some pretty good mod cons to consider too. It's a matter of how good the local distributor support is- and if DIY, if they'll honor the warranty if installed by a non-pro.

    Pumping head is of course a critical aspect- there are both minimum flow and maximum delta-T requirements across any particular boiler that has to be met, and sizing the pump such that it delivers the heat to the zones while meeting all of the boiler manufacturers criteria in every mode is important. It's easier to manage divergent boiler vs. radiation flows (and varying radiation flows) using P/S and two pumps. But if you're running it as a single zone you can often or even usually direct-pump it, but not necessarily with the pump that came with the boiler (on boilers that come configured with an internal pump.)

  6. #21
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    I have a Buderus mod-con. Essentially no maintenance issues. Essentially silent operation if you're at least 3-feet away. Their US headquarters is about 15-miles from me, it got good reviews, and I found a competent installer. SS heat exchanger. Nicely modular, open, easy to work if, should it become necessary. Compact, wall-hung, well engineered.
    Jim DeBruycker
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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  7. #22
    Master Hot Water Mpls,MN BadgerBoilerMN's Avatar
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    Sorry Jad,

    We are Buderus/Bosch dealers and they do not make a SS heat exchanger (HX), all are aluminum. Regular maintenance is essential for reliability and efficiency.

    Burnham Alpine and Peerless use helical flat water-tube SS HX, whereas Triangle uses a SS fire-tube HX with more water content and much lower pressure drop.

    Buderus mandates P/S but Alpine and TT let a contractor do the math and use one pumps when he's able.

    It is not the HX or warranty or proximity to the factory that really matters when it comes to a successful boiler installation. It is simply the knowledge of the installer. I will be doing a preventive maintenance call on a Munchkin M140 today for the first time since installation in 2007. First, I will look for the installation manual and then for a start-up sheet. There won't be one.

    You will need a combustion analyser to do a proper start-up. Now that I think of it, it is probably best to use the old-fashioned, inherently inefficient cast iron boiler for DIY if you do not have or cannot afford a professional.

    I don't think dressing up the old cast iron pigs will work for Burnham. I would be more committed to modern boiler technology, but I always have been.

  8. #23
    DIY Junior Member cyruspinkney's Avatar
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    Default moving forward

    Many thanks, all around.

    @Dana
    I'm curious as to how the heat load calculation was made, and what you used for indoor & outdoor design temps?
    Sounds like I don't need to upsize my boiler. Wrightsoft was used to calculate the heat loss on the home. The windows on the home are single-pane sliders, the attic has time-compressed fiberglass batt insulation, I think R-8 would be generous at this point. The exterior walls are insulated, but this is based on gutting the bathroom a few months ago, there was fiberglass in the bays. I have every intention of improving the enclosure of the home, mostly with custom storms, blown in cellulose in the attic, insulating the rim boards in the basement, etc. I had been planning on doing a blower door test this week, just haven't had the time. What may be generating the, by your estimation, high heat loss calc may be that a good deal of the home sits over an unconditioned garage (also an area I intend on furring, insulation, etc. down the road).

    We closed on our purchase of the home at the end of January, so we really only spent a month with bitter cold weather--at least for NJ standards--so getting the oil records is something I may try to do. I was under the impression that the heat loss calc would suffice and I could select the boiler directly from that.

    @Dana
    NEVER upsize a boiler for the DHW load
    Thought so, comforting to hear a firm re-assurance. My intentions were to definitely use an IDHW and zoning it priority. We are not the "luxurious" type, so sizing the tank is not a problem.

    @Dana
    Pumping head is of course a critical aspect
    Sounds like I need to do some more analysis

    @BadgerBoilerMN
    Now that I think of it, it is probably best to use the old-fashioned, inherently inefficient cast iron boiler for DIY if you do not have or cannot afford a professional.
    I don't think dressing up the old cast iron pigs will work for Burnham. I would be more committed to modern boiler technology, but I always have been.

    Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but we'll be using a professional during my install, but a good portion of the work will be done by myself to keep my cost down. I will also be using the professional to fine tune the ODR and other settings. To resign myself to using a less efficient system just because I, myself, am not the professional is a bit ignorant. I am not quite sure I understand your last statement, if you care to elaborate.

    I have attached a photo of my intended set-up, as the professional I am dealing with had a very similar install and intend to mimic it as closely as I can. The system here was built for a monoflow, 2-zone, with an indirect tank (no pictured), which is exactly my plan. The boiler here is an NTI, but I am not quite sure I want to use them as a manufacturer. I will definitely be using a hydronic separator, regardless if I use an aluminum or ss heat exchanger. I'd like to limit as many possibilities of compromising the HX as possible and hopefully the separator can help with that, even though that upfront cost is more than I had expected. As always, comments are encouraged and welcomed.
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  9. #24
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    OK, with R8 in the attic, swaths of single-pane glass, no foundation insulation, and an uninsulated floor over an uninsulated drive-under garage you might be that high.

    Yes, a Wrightsoft heat loss calc is sufficient for sizing the boiler, but only run the numbers on and size the boiler for the "after" picture of what it comes to post-insulation & air sealing upgrades, and be aggressive- don't use a 0F design temp or a 78F indoor temp "just to be sure" or under-rate the actual insulation.

    And DO get rid of the single-pane sliders- fifty square feet of U1.2 air-leaky slider is worth more than 3500 BTU/hr @ +10F all by itself, and the cascade of convecting cold air down the frost encrusted interior on design day is the opposite of "comfort". A U-0.35 or lower replacement with better air sealing would peel more than 2000 BTU/hr off the load and deliver a real uptick in comfort. If it's a west facing slider sans shade-tree a low SGHC glazing is highly recommended to keep the sensible cooling loads bounded. If you have any other single-pane windows, short of an expensive replacement window, tight low-E storm windows (Harveys are the tightest, but the silver or gold series Larsons sold through box stores don't suck), can improve the performance of a single pane to the low U-0.3s at fairly low cost, and is cost effective in short years (quicker than cheaper clear-glass storms) even at buck-a-therm gas.

    An uninsulated foundation wall & band joist is likely to be on the order of 15,000 BTU/hr @ +10F even assuming a chilly 50-55F basement temp. (What did Wrightsoft come up with?) While air-sealing and insulating the band joist & foundation sill is important, don't ignore the elephant in the room. To do it quickly 2" of closed cell polyurethane with an intumescent paint over it for fire-safety works. But in your climate 1.5-2" of unfaced EPS foam-sealed at the edges and trapped in place with a non-structural studwall with UNFACED batts (preferably rock wool) would be higher performance for lower cost (if you discount your DIY labor.) An inch of foam under the stud plate of that studwall is advisable as a capillary & thermal break from the slab moisture/temperature. Either approach is likely to peel more than 10,000 BTU/hr off the heat load, and combined with attic insulation and select window upgrades puts you within the output range of an Burnham ALP80 Triangle Tube Solo-60 or even a Peerless PF-50 or similar. (Smaller=better, almost always.)

    I'm with Morgan (BadgerBoilerMN) on the comparatively DIY un-friendliness of mod-cons relative to cast iron. If you can, tap some shoulders and get in on the factory training (despite being a non-pro) , and let a pro with both the tools & experience do the final commissioning. Paying a real hydronic designer to spec the system is probably worth it too, even if you're the junior-plumber. It's easier and cheaper to do the math and installation right the first time than to be ripping up & replacing to fix a mediocre design/install. It's way more than a simple plumbing exercise, though not impossible for the truly dedicated.

    Otherwise, the mid-efficiency dressed-up cast iron pigs that Morgan detests are more forgiving, and still deliver 85% (but never 95%) true efficiency if dialed in a bit. Of the prettified pigs, the 3-plate Burnham ESC-3 would be the likely candidate, since it can handle low return temps, and has internal hooks for an outdoor reset option to dial in the comfort. With high volume cast iron rads it'll never short cycle. Any new boiler should be sealed combustion/direct vent, if you plan on doing much air sealing (or even if you don't). If you can squeeze the heat load down to a more reasonable 25-30KBTU/hr (not outside the realm of reality) the delta in operating cost between a 2x oversized 85% AFUE boiler and a 2x oversized smallest-in-class mod-con will be pretty negligible until/unless gas prices triple.

    But if you have a competent hydronic designer to tap and are dedicated to the mod-con approach, have at it. But get the heat load down to something reasonable first, eh?

  10. #25
    DIY Junior Member cyruspinkney's Avatar
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    Default cart in front of the horse, but...

    @Dana
    size the boiler for the "after" picture of what it comes to post-insulation & air sealing upgrades, and be aggressive- don't use a 0F design temp or a 78F indoor temp "just to be sure"
    I will admit that I did use the "just to be sure" (I was calling it 'err on the side of caution) method when I was building the Wrightsoft model, so that also may have kicked the heat loss up a bit.

    Great ideas on all fronts for improving the enclosure, most of which have already been put into my longer-term budget. Unfortunately, and I know I am going to get beat up a bit on this forum, I am going to install the boiler before the improvements to the shell. We're a young couple and our budget isn't very forgiving, so I'm going to have to improve the enclosure over a longer period of time. Winter is coming, and I'd really like to NOT have to have another oil delivery.

    After attending Joe Lstiburek's Building Science Summer Camp in MA this and last August, I decided that I am going the route of quality storms instead of replacements. It just makes more financial sense for us (see above). All of the windows in the home, save for a set of double-hung, fixed, double-hung facing east, are original Andersen sliders. The DH-F-DH will eventually be replaced, but I do like the design and character of the sliders, so they'll all probably remain, with the addition of storms...eventually.

    Regarding the basement, I will have to review my model tomorrow for it's breakdown at the basement. The elephant in the room is the room itself, and the assembly(ies) you're recommending are something we've been showing at almost all of our retrofits; while I would love to do the flash & fill, I'll most likely be using the board + batt method. Because of dampness issues on the foundation wall (yea, by this point, you've gathered I bought a bit of a fixer-upper) I thought that XPS would be a better option. The 1" below the stud plate is very interesting and something I will now be adding to my drawings--1" is a hell of a lot better than a roll of sill sealer. The garage, with it's 12'+ of ceiling height should probably get the same treatment, especially considering it's directly below the bedrooms.

    A point I failed to mention is the relocation of these mechanics, from one end of the basement. The current, original boiler is tied into the masonry chimney, but it creates an uncomfortable floor plan, so the desire is to move the new boiler to a more logistically (at least for future use of the basement) reasonable location on the other side of the basement. The relocation all but forces me to vent with PVC, 1) because of it's lack of a chimney, 2) because I don't have the space to run a chase chimney for a b-vent. Thus, I am a bit limited to what boiler I can install. Other than a mod/con, I have only found the WM GV+ series that allows for PVC venting. I have not dismissed the idea of the GV+, although, after @Dana's suggestion, I will most certainly be going with a GV+ 3 instead of the 4.

    I am willing to "overwork" a smaller (undersized for current conditions) mod/con (or the GV) for one winter, while I go about improving the enclosure/reduce the heat load, than have an oversized boiler for the future 20+ years. Anything is better than the original American Standard oil-sucking beast I have now which can't be operating at much more than 60%.

    While I don't know if I could ever get the home down to 25-30K (come onnnnnn MegaMillions), what are the thoughts about installing @Dana's recommended "smaller" boiler to satisfy future considerations, although it may be taxed this winter.

  11. #26
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that you likely only need the full output of the boiler (if it's sized properly) on the coldest design day and also consider that that usually only occurs just before dawn, then it warms up. Plus, the house doesn't magically become an icebox - it would fairly gradually cool off if it can't keep up until the outside conditions moderate. It may mean that instead of keeping it 73-degrees, it can only keep it 72 or 71, depending. If you rerun the calcs using more 'normal' temps, you'd get a better idea of what to expect.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  12. #27
    Master Hot Water Mpls,MN BadgerBoilerMN's Avatar
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    The NTI pictured is appears to be enormously over-engineered, over-pumped for sure. It is rare when we use P/S, the bulk of our business being mod/con boilers; case in point we will be installing an NTI TFT250 condensing boiler for a Class II snow/ice melting system next week. One pump , no "hydraulic" separator, all the math done up front. We could design a system for you for less than the seldom needed hydraulic separator (an appliance that inevitably raises the return water temperature) will cost installed.

    We use Wrightsoft to design everything and recommend sizing to the final building envelope. The layman and professional often have an irrational fear of under-sizing equipment. The professional because he does not explain the benefits and detriments of this practice and doesn't want the angry phone call, and the layman who doesn't know that under-sizing a boiler will lead to lower-than-design temperatures in the house lasting a week or so. Typically this amounts to a room reaching 66F instead of 70. If it is a transitional situation a sweater or temp heater would be in order.

    Here is a recent fully automatic Class II snow/ice melting system in Prior Lake, MN, using a an NTI, TFT 175. Note the single circulator...
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  13. #28
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    It doesn't take megamillions to get the heat load of a 1700' house down to 30K, but it's dead-easy to get it under 50K when you're starting out with essentially no insulation in the attic and glaring single-pane glass loads. And the true heat loads are lower than Manual-J's imply by a good 15-25%, even when you think you've been pretty meticulous about subtracting off all of the internal sources like sleeping humans, refrigerators, etc.

    Whose shoulders do you have to tap to get an invite to Joe L.'s party? :-) (I'd probably fit right in with the gaggle of energy nerds there in Westford.)

    XPS is more vapor retardent than EPS, but EPS is more moisture tolerant over the long term, and it's cheaper.

    And the R-value at the end of 50 years after 90% of the HFC134a has leaked out of the XPS to add to the global warming is barely better than EPS at the same density & thickness. (I've been designing XPS out wherever possible on lifecycle greenhouse gas grounds.)

    If you went with something like a Solo-60 and your heat load at +10F really WAS something like 65K (unlikely, but OK just sayin') you'd be about 10KBTU/hr short of boiler out at 70F indoor temps but only 5K short at 65F, and fully covered for 60F indoors. In the unlikely event that it stayed 10F or lower for most of the day you could make up the 100% of the shortfall with a couple of 1500W oil-filled radiator type space heaters at $50/per. If you're planning to have air conditioning (I would, in a place as sticky as NJ in summer) a 3/4 ton mini-split in heating mode would also be able to more than make up the shortfall.

    No matter what it's better to right-size the boiler for the load you anticipate over the lifecycle of the boiler than to start out oversized to only end up RIDICULOUSLY oversized. Sight unseen I'd almost be willing to bet that with your air-sealing and attic & basement insulation upgrades you'd really be in the sub-50K range.

    For reference, when I moved into my current 1923 vintage home in central MA, the where-is-as-is heat load on the ~1900' house with 1200' of uninsulated basement was in the neighborhood of 50KBTU/hr @ +5F as measured by HDD against fuel use, with double-hungs and clear-glass storms, no foundation insulation, a leaky and barely insulated (mostly cathedral ceiling & kneewalls) attic. After an addition was added it become 2400' plus 1500' of basement, with air sealing, a modest amount of attic insulation,fixing some (not all) of the wall insulation gaps and putting 3" rigid foam on the foundation walls the heat load is now under 35K, and there are still HUGE gaps in the insulation, with only the foundation insulation meeting current code. At the 130F max water temp I'm running the current heating system I'm radiation limited to ~42-44kBTU/hr, and this place has sailed through -8F weather just fine without losing ground.

    Different heat load tools have posited heat loads between 39-45K @ +5F for this house, but for that to be the case I'd have to have a magic 10K burner hiding somewhere in the house. At the site shading factors it SURE isn't solar gain skewing the fuel use numbers, and at the rate my kid goes through hot water if it's skewed, it's the other direction. By rights should have been uncomfortably cold on those 99.97% bin nights, but strangely the system keeps up. I won't bump up the water temp just 'cuz the load tool and radiation specs says it needs it- I'll only bump it if my wife says it needs it. :-)

  14. #29
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    It's pretty cheap to seal penetrations into the attic, then pick up a bunch of blown in insulation. Most places will loan you the blowing machine for free with purchase of enough insulation, and really, it took maybe 30-minutes for me with a helper filling the machine, to blow in 20 bags into my attic. You probably could use more, but you get the idea time wise and improvement in comfort was immediate - the second story bedrooms were immediately more comfortable and, quieter.
    Jim DeBruycker
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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  15. #30
    DIY Junior Member cyruspinkney's Avatar
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    Default much appreciated, now who wants to help?

    @BadgerBoilerMN

    One pump , no "hydraulic" separator, all the math done up front. We could design a system for you for less than the seldom needed hydraulic separator (an appliance that inevitably raises the return water temperature) will cost installed
    I haven't done much research on the separator, but my mechanical consultant (who speaks broken english, so I gather he meant to say "hydraulic" not "hydronic) suggested it to reduce the floating particles from my cast iron rads clogging the HX. Is this the intention for the separator or am I losing something in translation? If I don't need it, I'd love to trim off the $400+ that I see them going for online. In any case, I think I do need some help sizing my system and components. Any takers?!

    We use Wrightsoft to design everything and recommend sizing to the final building envelope.
    I will re-run my calcs with my intended envelope. I admittedly have the fear of under-sizing the equipment, mostly because it seems like some of the old-school plumbers (I know, I know) are so against it and general, uneducated consensus has suggested much larger boilers. I thought I would play it safe and split the difference in my sizing, but I now have every intention in sizing the boiler for the life of it. I'd rather not install the new system and embarrassingly still need the sweater or temp heater, but if I have to do it for a few days during the coldest parts of ONE winter, I can live with it.

    @Dana

    you'd be about 10KBTU/hr short of boiler out at 70F indoor temps but only 5K short at 65F, and fully covered for 60F indoors. In the unlikely event that it stayed 10F...a 3/4 ton mini-split in heating mode would also be able to more than make up the shortfall
    Breaking the numbers down that way, especially considering the limited time that the conditions are as noted, I feel more comfortable with the smaller boiler. Also, I have thought about mini-splits, but the designer in me, and the complainer in my fiance, doesn't want to be adding any "furniture" to the walls, although I probably will put a small one in the basement, more for cooling than for heating.

    Interesting about your home and encouraging to know getting towards 35K is something I can legitimately strive for, especially considering your colder winters in MA than mine in NJ. My home being a raised ranch with a fair amount of roof, I'm kinda banking on the solar heat gain for this winter, even though convection won't work in my favor

    @jadnashua

    It's pretty cheap to seal penetrations into the attic, then pick up a bunch of blown in insulation.
    I have every intention of renting an AttiCat (or whatever the big box rent), especially after $320+ cooling bills this summer with being very conservative with our old, but kicking central air. The blown-in is a guarantee and probably will get done this winter Maybe it'll be nice and toasty in the attic while my new boiler fills the house with heat.


    I am now much more comfortable with properly sizing the boiler itself, but am a bit hesitant on the sizing of the other components. I have a friend who works at a plumbing supply and has been asking me to get him a list of what I'll need, but so far I know is a whole lot of copper, a 30-40g indirect hot water tank, and (1) boiler.

    If anyone wants to take a look at my layout, I'd be more than appreciative. For clarity, here's a link where the image quality isn't reduce if you're so inclined: http://db.tt/RK79aYjn (I apologize if you've seen this before)

    Thank you anyone and everyone in advance!
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    Last edited by cyruspinkney; 08-30-2013 at 08:34 PM.

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