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Thread: Pin Sleeve Boxes

  1. #16
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    None of us here really want to argue code with you nor profess to know it as well as you do, and absolutely none of us want to be the cause of a lineman getting electrocuted.
    Here in lies a lot of liability for a homeowner or an electrical contractor. Safety must always come first in everything we do or we could end up in court trying to explain ourself
    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    I'm sure every one of us to the very hardest nose of us would hate ourselves for the rest of our life if we caused the death of a lineman.
    Not to mention any legal cost or penalties.
    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    If a store sells portable generators and also sells transfer panels supposedly to be used with them, they are doing a dis-service to everybody.
    Same store sells 2X4s and 4 penny finish nails. Is this a dis-service?
    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    Your example of a store selling the listed 30 amp breaker and 14 gauge wire is different.
    How is it different? Are you saying that your knowledge tells you this would be wrong but if you do not have the knowledge about something then it is different?
    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    Lumber yards sell lumber and nails. Got to use the correct size nails and fasteners to do the job. The exact job determines the lumber and fasteners needed.
    This is exactly what I said but I used electrical equipment instead of lumber and nails.
    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    If you go to HD and buy generator and they sell you at the same time a power transfer panel that is not safe to use per code, then they should be stopped from selling these items and be responsible for damages.
    So you are saying that they should be punished for your lack of knowledge? Should they be stopped from selling 2X10s and finish nails to the same customer?

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    So you are saying that a licensed electrician doing residential work would not install a transfer panel as Chef and you described, on a home for a portable generator. I'm not asking what a homeowner would do, because many homeowners should not be allowed to change a lightbulb, let alone install a system like this.
    What I am saying is the codes allow for a proper installation and just because something works in no way means that it is proper. Without knowledge of what one is undertaking it will never be correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    Several years ago I was sent to one of our customers in Michigan to troubleshoot a problem on their multimillion dollar machine system built by my company. When I got there, the first thing they did was turn off the main panel that fed power to my machine because I removed the cover from our control panel so I could access the relay logic and inverter drives. They told me that MIOSHA fined them recently for running a machine with a panel open. I told them that they deserved that fine, but I also told them that in order for me to troubleshoot their problem, I needed the power on. They allowed me to proceed when I started packing up my tools to leave. Sometimes, just sometimes the rules are a bit TOO much, but they are necessary.
    OSHA in 1910.333 and NFPA 70E mandate that if one is checking voltages or doing any other electrical testing that they wear the proper PPE. I have fired many who worked for me for not complying with the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    What Bob says is true, and I agree. The problem that I see with the switch over panels, is that they are Normally for permanent Installs and Not Temporary. Do you have a web link for the one you will be using ?
    Any electrical system weather temporary or permanent is required to be connect by the use of a transfer switch that prevents the energizing of both systems at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    The Gen you plan to use is made for Temporary use, that is why it has a Twist Lock and is not direct wired.
    This is correct and should be used with cords that plugs each appliance in one at a time

    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Make sure you have a Disconnect that disconnects all conductors from the main Line feed, It needs to do that. Or Run Extension cords for what you want to power.
    Or Run Extension cords for what you want to power is the safest and cheapest way to use one of these type generators.


    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    What is safer ? Depends, on JW's Approval. Be careful playing with electricity.
    It in no way depends on my approval but it does need the approval of any adopted codes.

    So many times people will make electrical installations without any thought of the available fault current imposed on the overcurrent devices or the path of any ground faults.
    If the AIC (available fault current) of the circuit breakers is 10,000 amps but the generator has an AIC of 20,000 amps then the circuit breakers are not worth the air they take up.

    The path for any fault current cannot have more than one path and can be bonded at only one place. With the generator connected to the house wiring the path for any fault current is to the service panel where it will split and travel back to the generator on both the neutral (white wire in the cord) and the Supply side bonding jumper (the green wire in the cord) energizing the frame of the generator. Wonder what would be the outcome if someone was touching the frame the instant this happened?

    Any generator of 15kw or less manufactured or remanufactured after 01-01-11 is required to have all receptacles on the generator GFCI protected. This means that the only way to connect this generator to a premises wiring system using the method being discussed would only cause the GFCI to trip.

    It is permissible to use a trailer mounted generator (guess what? These are portable generators also) using the methods outlined in this thread but to use a generator bought at a big box stores and connect them to a premises wiring system would cost more than the generator and the short answer is no those multi-circuit transfer switches are not allowed.

  2. #17
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
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    This is the time for the Fat Lady to sing; So WHERE are you?
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  3. #18
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    This is the time for the Fat Lady to sing; So WHERE are you?

    Last time I seen her she was at the Nascar Race eating popcorn.

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    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

  4. #19
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Last time I seen her she was at the Nascar Race eating popcorn.

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    I saw her at the Met last. Viking hat and all.
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  5. #20
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    This is the time for the Fat Lady to sing; So WHERE are you?
    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Last time I seen her she was at the Nascar Race eating popcorn.
    Gentlemen, there is a right way and a wrong way to do things and as pointed out many times the wrong way is not allowed on the forum.

    The Department of Consumer and Regulatory Affairs for the District of Columbia regulates the permits and inspections of any electrical work done in their area. It is not a matter of what we have seen, what others do, or what we want but instead it is a matter of code compliance.

    Chefwong has asked a question that needs more than an answer to the question before he gets into something that will end up costing him in the end. It is only proper and fit to give him the information he needs to achieve his goals instead of blindly saying, “I have seen it done that way for years.”

    Many fine folks across this nation are doing installations that in the future will not work simply due to the changing of the rules every three years. The rule for a self-contained generator manufactured or rebuilt after January the first of the year of our Lord two thousand eleven will not work on this type of installation as the required GFCI will not hold.

    Unless the generator is listed for installation in inclement weather the use of the generator on the outside of the building will result in a generator that is a good boat anchor.

    110.3(B) of the NEC states the following; (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
    What are the installation instructions for stand-alone generators? Look at the link in my earlier post and see.

  6. #21
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Default Safe is good

    .
    I agree JW.

    But what does that have to do with my Girlfriend ?


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    I guess she was off topic, Sorry.


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    If you can't lift her, do not try to steal her from me.


    I say be Safe, Not Sorry...
    Last edited by DonL; 05-16-2013 at 10:26 AM.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

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  7. #22
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    .
    I agree JW.

    But what does that have to do with my Girlfriend ?


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    I guess she was off topic, Sorry.


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    If you can't lift her, do not try to steal her from me.


    I say be Safe, Not Sorry...
    good work Don. Ah dowanna you canhavah, she's too fat for me.
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  8. #23
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    good work Don. Ah dowanna you canhavah, she's too fat for me.

    Good deal, That leaves more for me.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Good deal, That leaves more for me.
    looks like she stole maddona's bra ensemble
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  10. #25
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    looks like she stole maddona's bra ensemble

    Yes I think she bought that on Ebuy for $100,000 from Maddona.

    That must be the case because Maddona has not been wearing it lately.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

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