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Thread: Totally confused- no Totos are MaP Premium?

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member VADawg's Avatar
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    Default Totally confused- no Totos are MaP Premium?

    Hi all, in the midst of a whole-house renovation. I have been reading about toilets on here for weeks. My contractor wanted to go with Kohler Memoir. I started my research and based on what I read here, decided that Toto was the best and I *had* to have a Toto. My budget is $~400. I really hate the look of the Drake. I like the Promenade but have heard bad things about bowl wash. It seemed like the Clayton was ok- I couldn't find much on it, really, good or bad. I use a lot of tp (I know, I know- my husband threatens to put my on a tp budget!), and I want a good bowl wash. I've heard many of the Totos don't have a good bowl wash. Anyway, before I bit the bullet on the Clayton and ordered 4 of them, I did a little more digging and checked out the MaP ratings everyone talks about. There are NO Totos on the premium list!? I'm more confused than ever. Have heard good things about AS Cadet 3 and Kohler Highline, should I give up on Toto? Help!

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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    The guy who designed the MaP tests says anything over 500 is great. Some manufacturers have figured out how to make them look great on the MaP test, but that doesn't mean they actually work well with the 'real' stuff.

    Depending on how old the current toilets are, they may use anywhere from 3.5 to maybe as much as 7-8 gallons per flush. Those WILL have better bowl wash...there's only so much you can do with 1.6 or 1.28g - but, add in SanaGloss and good design, Totos work quite well. Streaking is mostly a function of diet...some get them, some don't.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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    In the Trades Gary Swart's Avatar
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    MaP test are greatly overrated. First of all, no low flow toilets have the bowl wash the old water hogs had, but are quite satisfactory for most of us. Yes, occasionally you may need a quite brushing, but that's about it. Second, MaP ratings are somewhat akin to MPG ratings in cars. Interesting, but not really very meaningful. As far a the looks of various models, that's a very personal opinion. Many folks like the skirted styles, but they are a bit more expensive. The exterior looks have nothing to do with the basic functionality of the unit.

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    To get the Premium rating, it needs to be 1.06 gallons or less. There aren't a lot of bowls out there yet that do that.

    TOTO does have a toilet on the premium list that I've installed. It's the TOTO Drake II 1G, which has double cyclone rinse and Sanagloss. 1.0 GPF

    The TOTO Drake II 1G seems to work very well.

    I just took a look at the "Premium" listings by MaP

    Good luck on that.
    There aren't a lot on that list that I would want.

    We've been installing and repair toilets for decades. We work in peoples homes and hear from them, what they like.
    I don't believe in a sterile testing method. For example, the Caroma products on the "Premium" list, are only recommended if bowl wash isn't important on this web site. You can read the complaints about that here, and yet MaP gives them a Premium rating. That's pretty funny. No, make that very funny.

    To get the Premium rating, it needs to be 1.06 gallons or less. There aren't a lot of bowls out there yet that do that.
    TOTO does have the Drake II 1G, which has double cyclone rinse and Sanagloss. 1.0 GPF

    For that matter, the Kohle Memoir or Tresham would have been fine at 1.28 gallon.

    I have been selling a lot of the Promenade and Clayton by TOTO.
    And I'm very partial to the TOTO Soiree and Guinevere.
    Most of what I have been installing is in the 1.28 or 1.60 range.
    1.06 is still pretty new.
    Last edited by Terry; 02-26-2014 at 06:05 PM.

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    DIY Junior Member VADawg's Avatar
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    Hmm, I guess I didn't really understand what the MaP ratings tested. I may still be uninformed about this, but the new lower numbered toilets don't sound like something I like the sound of! I feel like the 1.6 has to work better than a 1.28 or 1.06? Especially for bowl wash. For that reason, I've steered clear of the Drake II and any Eco models. I would love the Toto Guinevere- that's my dream toilet! But sadly a skirted one-piece is not in my budget this time. It's good to know you've been selling a lot of Claytons, that gives me some confidence in choosing that one. I know the new lower gpf toilets, even the 1.6, don't have as good a bowl rinse, but I've heard in Totos the water line is so low that mold and hard water lines grow quite easily. Has anyone found this to be true?

  6. #6
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Where are you hearing this crap?!

    The Original Drake has a decent waterspot. The Drake II a little bit less, but it has better bowl wash due to the double-cyclone.

    Most people can't tell the difference between the 1.28 and the 1.6gpf toilets. For example, if I put the original Drake at 1.6 next to the Original Drake at 1.28 side by side, I doubt many could tell me which was which.

    As to MAP ratings, forget about "Premium". It's a marketing thing at the moment, and not a very useful one. As to the regular MAP ratings, which you can look up anywhere, if it's over 500, it's probably fine, although some designs will flush better than others. All your Totos above builder grade (i.e. no cheaper than the Drake) flush magnificently, although there are different flushes.

    One option if you don't like the look of the Original Drake is to look at it with the optional New Tank, which is like $30 more in the street price, which you can look at Terry's prices above to see what's fair. When he gets his new Cart up and running, I think he will have all the options not on there now. Just google CST744EN for the new tank on the elongated bowl. ("N" is for New Tank.) The new tank comes set for 1.28gpf, which should work fine.

    If you want more bowl rinse, consider the Drake II. It's a great toilet. There's no waterline issues with these toilets. If all the folks badmouthing the Drake II were right, then it wouldn't be the most popular toilet of any brand regularly on a big internet retail site, and wouldn't rack up hundreds of great reviews.

    All the toilets I mentioned are within your budget. We have two original Drakes, and love them. We also have a double-cyclone toilet, which is the skirted version of the Ultramax II, called the Carlyle II. We think that that's awesome, although it's pricier.

    If you want a 1-gallon toilet, Toto is also now producing the Ultramax II in a 1G version, although the basic one is still 1.28.

    Also within your budget would be one of the Aquia toilets, which is a dual-flush with great bowl wash (because it's a "washdown" flush, which doesn't have a siphon jet and uses all the water to rush down the sides). It does have a smaller waterspot, because more water is used in the flush, reducing the amount used in refill. But whatever you deposit will get washed free. Terry says that these have an almost-100-percent no-return rate. People install them, love them, and order more.

    So...to review. Original Drake in 1.28gpf with New Tank may appeal to you and is a great-value option, even if it has a little less bowl wash. (I don't notice that; it always comes clean for me, but some people deposit stuff of a different consistency. Every part of the bowl gets water run on it (you can test this with pepper, for example, and I have), but just not as much as the old swimming-pool toilets, and not as much as the Aquia. Also, the Drake II with the double-cyclone is a good value in that it has Sanagloss standard, as well as Universal Height; if either appeals to you, then it's a good deal. (Sanagloss is a special glaze that helps keep it clean, but then you have to tell everyone not to use Comet or the like to clean it.)

    Try looking on Youtube for the different flushes and you may see one that stands out for you.

    Good luck, and come back with any questions!!


    Original Drake with New Tank CST744EN
    Last edited by wjcandee; 02-26-2014 at 11:33 PM.

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    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Here's a video of the Original Drake flushing paper. Ignore the soundtrack; I had my mic set wrong so it sounds like a jetliner, which it doesn't in real life. For a video showing the water spot size, look at my other video of the toilet on Youtube.


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    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    And here's a bangin' video showing both the water spot size on the Drake II as well as its ability to flush paper...



    If you get bored watching the buildup, the flush comes about 3:20 and there's a nice picture of the water spot after that.
    Last edited by wjcandee; 02-26-2014 at 11:38 PM.

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    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    And here's a video of the Aquia washdown flush (see a little smaller water spot but good bowl wash):


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    DIY Junior Member VADawg's Avatar
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    I thought the siphon jet (I'm assuming that's the G-max?) was better than the non-siphon jet? So is there a toilet that has a powerful flush, wash down flush for excellent bowl rinse, and larger water spot? The "washdown" flush, which you said doesn't have a siphon jet, is that better for bowl wash but not as good for flushing? I don't care about the eco or premium ratings, 1.6 gpf is good for me, heck I wish the old water hogs were still available! Thank you for your help!

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    DIY Senior Member Reach4's Avatar
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    Double Cyclone, which is what you may be calling siphon jet, is two nozzles (instead of many rim holes)
    G-max is 1.6 gpf. E-max is 1.28 gpf.

    http://www.totousa.com/WhyTOTO/Innov...ngSystems.aspx
    Last edited by Reach4; 02-27-2014 at 10:59 AM.

  12. #12
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    The old 3.5 toilets were last sold in 1991.
    Thas was twenty three years ago.

    All toilets in the last 23 years have been 1.6 gallons or less.
    All 1.6 gallon bowls use less water than the old 2.5 and 5.0 bowls.
    They do fush better, but may require more cleaning than before. With the savings on your water bill, you can take that money to the bank, and still have money left over for maid service.
    Personally, I like to keep mine clean myself.

    With most any of these, you can hold the handle down and use the entire tank for the flush. That gives you almost 3.0 gallons.

    I have the Drake II in one home, and it's like spotless. It flushes well and stays very clean.

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    DIY Junior Member VADawg's Avatar
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    Ok so what is the difference between Gmax flushing system and Double Cyclone? And which is better at which? Thank you all for your help!!

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VADawg View Post
    Ok so what is the difference between Gmax flushing system and Double Cyclone? And which is better at which? Thank you all for your help!!
    It hardly matters. The double cyclone all come "with" Sanagloss.
    I give the edge to the II series.

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    DIY Junior Member VADawg's Avatar
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    So between the Drake II with new transitional tank and Clayton, which would you choose for bowl rinse and flushing? I think the Clayton costs more, what am I getting for my extra money with the Clayton?

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