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Thread: sizing new pressure tank and CSV for use with Clack air injector prior to softner

  1. #16
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knowhow View Post
    I just don't have the space for the Wellmate HP-18 (80 gallon) tank because of the component (AVC) on the top. I am also concerned about the drawdown, if I end up not being able to use a CSV. The drawdown for the WX-255 is 27.5 gallons at 30/50 versus 17.8 with the HP-18.
    Why do you think you need so much drawdown? You probably need more contact time in a tank that can be flushed out. Yes, it is easy to get more contact time and more drawdown by having a larger tank provided you have the room for it.

    Again, as I mentioned before, tune your system by matching draw to supply to not cycle as much.

    The composite hydro-pneumatic tank I mentioned is serviceable whereas most bladder tanks are a throw-away. You really should not use a bladder tank anyway as the air you inject has no properly designed place to be vented off. You shouldn't let the air collect in the top of your media tank.

  2. #17
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Another reason not to use a bladder tank is contact time. If/when water is being drawn while it is being pumped, it bypasses the tank since the point of entry is also the point of exit. The water needs to go in one port and exit another so that it has hang time inside the tank.

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    I know treating well water can sometimes be a challenge. But however you do it, I think it is worth it. Hooking up to a city water line just lets the government have more control over your life. Times are coming when, if you have “too much money” in your bank account, the government will just take 40%, because they need it more than you do to distribute the wealth. If you are hooked up to their water supply, they could just cut you off until you comply with anything else they want. If you are not paranoid now, you will be thirsty, broke, and unarmed later.

  4. #19
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    I'm quite certain that the venturi will not draw much air if placed after the tank due to less pressure differential. The venturi relies upon the greater pressure that the pump produces for maximum air draw.

    Also, the venturi requires a high enough GPM to work. When placed between the pump and tank, the GPM is fairly constant based on pump curve. When placed after the tank, the GPM is only what is used at the time.
    I don't know how many air injection systems you've worked on other than yours but I have worked on a few over the years. I don't like them but..

    How does the injector see more pressure when it is between the pump and the pressure tank when the pump is controlled by the pressure switch on the tank tee? And an injector works with gpm based on the pressure range the pump is operated at.

    The mixing/retention tank I posted the link to is a 12" dia tank only 65" tall and is equivalent to a 120 gallon retention tank. And the contact time is greatly reduced to damn near none, Plus it has 3/4" bottom drain.

    I suggest maybe using the softener to remove the iron instead of air injection.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #20
    Residential Design and Consultant knowhow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    If you install the injector after the pressure tank and have a correctly sized retention tank with a bottom drain and water out the top, you don't need two tanks. An 8" c 48" is too small.

    http://www.apwinc.com/retention_tank.html
    Thanks Gary,

    It would be great if I could put the air injector after the pressure tank.
    That way I could use a bladder tank instead of a hydro-pneumatic, get better drawdown, and not be as concerned about the iron deposits fouling the tank.

    I checked out the site, I like the concept, and understand your concern about my existing retention (aka contact?) tank with an AVC (thanks LLigetfa).
    Would you explain why it is too small? So that I and others reading this post can learn.

    I found some opinions on that special retention tank here
    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?47052-Automated-Pure-Water-12-quot-x60-quot-Retention-Tank-Good-stuff-or-BS I really like that the tank can be drained and cleaned of sediment.

    I would still have 2 tanks though, the pressure tank (whether it is a bladder type or a hydro-pneumatic tank) and the retention/contact tank.

    My biggest concern is whether (as LLigetfa states in his reply) or not the injector/venturi will properly oxidize the amount of (ferrous?) iron (0.19 mg/L) I have in my water, so that my pH neutralizer and softener can filter and then backwash the (then ferric?) iron out. I'm assuming that if the injector fails to work properly and the iron is not fully oxidized then my conditioned and filtered water may still contain ferrous iron.

    I wonder if I could use this company's concept using my old compressor and your suggested retention tank, or just purchase their retention tank. Then I wouldn't need to be concerned with whether or not an injector would work.
    http://www.watergroup.com/pdf-folder/manuals/air-pump-retention-tank-51458.pdf


    Boy this chore is really getting complicated! And I haven't even figured out how to incorporate the CSV (Cycle Stop Valve) yet.

    Looks like these are my options :

    Option #1

    Stay with similar to current setup: Replace Well-x-trol WX-250 with new larger WX-251 or WX-255, with new tee and a 50/70 pressure switch.
    Realize that this type tank will foul sooner than later and plan on replacing it, unless the filter below becomes available soon and is inexpensive.

    Then add a new high-flow, self-cleaning, self-draining filter (Joking!) (link below) after the air injector but before the new pressure tank to address the iron fouling concerns
    http://www.mining-technology.com/dow...ilter-from-1m/
    My wife is gonna kill me if I sell her Lamborghini to buy this thing (link below)
    http://lubrofiltra.com/eng/microperf...um_filter.html

    Then add a CSV? Where?

    Option #2

    Same as option #1 but use Gary's idea instead and put the injector after the pressure tank.
    Build some kind of contraption out of spare plumbing related components (junk) in my basement that guarantees it to work properly.
    Replace my existing retention tank with a new properly sized retention/contact tank, using Gary's link.

    Add a CSV? Where?

    Option #3

    Use "LLigetfa's" suggested components, but with tank sizes that work with my space restrictions.
    Note : Use of these Wellmate components HP-9 or HP-8 and UT-40 will drastically reduce drawdown (in comparison to a bladder type tank) and will require that a CSV can be guaranteed to work with this setup.
    I'll need to ask "valveman" if this seems reasonable.

    Option #4

    Same as Option #3 but use Gary's suggested retention tank? instead of the UT-40? why?

    Dream Option #5
    Sell my wife's Masserati. Buy her a new Prius. Buy a time machine, set it back 5 years, buy some water industry stocks, hook up to city water, buy some gold with all the money I saved by not having to maintain my water system, turn the time machine's clock back to present, sell those stocks, buy a few of the small water conditioning companies in my area, grow it into a really great company, go fill the bird feeder and weed n' feed the lawn, get a full nights sleep, no more noisy water conditioning equipment, sit around, get fat, and watch TV because I'm bored because I don't have any conditioning equipment failing to keep me busy. But at least the new water purification company is up and running profitably and I'm excited because life is good.

  6. #21
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    How does the injector see more pressure when it is between the pump and the pressure tank when the pump is controlled by the pressure switch on the tank tee?
    The injector goes between the pump and the pressure switch. It is a major enough constriction to make the pump pressure go higher than what the pressure switch sees.

  7. #22
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    You forgot option #6 - tie into city water and use the well only for irrigation.

  8. #23
    Residential Design and Consultant knowhow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Why do you think you need so much drawdown? You probably need more contact time in a tank that can be flushed out. Yes, it is easy to get more contact time and more drawdown by having a larger tank provided you have the room for it.

    Again, as I mentioned before, tune your system by matching draw to supply to not cycle as much.

    The composite hydro-pneumatic tank I mentioned is serviceable whereas most bladder tanks are a throw-away. You really should not use a bladder tank anyway as the air you inject has no properly designed place to be vented off. You shouldn't let the air collect in the top of your media tank.
    I assumed I needed more drawdown because of how my pump cycles when I am watering the lawn in the summer with an impulse sprinkler.
    It seems to work fine at all other times. That is why I have always been interested in the prospect of using a CSV.

    Earlier this week when I had a well guy, fairly familiar with my system, come over to determine what was wrong with my pressure tank. I also mentioned the lawn watering issue. He stated that the best thing to do was to replace my existing (12 gallon drawdown at 40/60) P tank with a larger capacity tank like the 251 or 255 (with drawdowns of 18.2 and 23.8 at 40/60) and that he would install a 50/70 pressure switch instead of the 40/60 I now have. He did not know anything about a CSV. Nor did he address the issue of the air injector even though I pointed that out to him. He just stated that a larger P tank would benefit my well pump by cycling less often and that my conditioning equipment would also benefit from the higher PSI I'd get from a 50/70 P switch.

    I realize that my system would probably benefit from a properly sized retention tank and that it would be much easier to maintain if it could be flushed out by having a drain at the bottom. I'm all for this. Its just that my old system (which I installed in 2003) had incorporated a UT-80 with a compressor, a 8" x 48" "off-air tank" (that's what the guy who sold it to me called it) and a pH neutralizer. So, when I changed my system over to using an air injector as the oxidizer, the installer who sold me on adding a softener to aid in filtering the iron, determined that the 8x48 with an AVC would suffice and remain in-line after the P tank as a retention/contact tank, and that the UT-80 would not be necessary?, or would have to go because of space requirements for the new softener and brine tank? (I don't recall why the UT-80 was not re-used as the contact tank)

    I will definitely take your advice and "tune your system by matching draw to supply to not cycle as much", once I determine which replacement components to specify.
    So, I guess if I want to water a certain portion of my lawn efficiently and effectively, as a prerequisite for my determining my system componentry, then I should choose a certain sprinkler head and manufacturer which states the required GPM usage, so that I can make an informed decision.

    Thanks for pointing out that the hydro-pneumatic tank is serviceable. I'm just not sure I want to deal with the additional maintenance which may be required because of the numerous parts associated with using that type of tank in my system.

    As per your statement : "You really should not use a bladder tank anyway as the air you inject has no properly designed place to be vented off. You shouldn't let the air collect in the top of your media tank."
    I neglected to tell you that there is an ACV? (pressure relief valve?) on the top of my existing "off air" tank. I just don't know if it works. I will be taking that tank apart to see what is in it, when I shut down the system to replace the P tank. Hopefully it has at least worked to vent/release accumulated air, even if it hasn't worked as a proper contact tank.

    I really appreciate all your knowledge and input.
    I just wish I was smarter so that I could comprehend it all quickly and put it all to the best use in a short period of time.
    It takes me forever to "get it".

  9. #24
    Residential Design and Consultant knowhow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Another reason not to use a bladder tank is contact time. If/when water is being drawn while it is being pumped, it bypasses the tank since the point of entry is also the point of exit. The water needs to go in one port and exit another so that it has hang time inside the tank.
    Gottcha, thanks for the explanation. But why can't my existing 8" x 48" tank be considered the contact tank?
    Can I reconfigure the tank I have to make it work better? Ugh! I forgot about the ability to drain it down to clean out the sediment!

  10. #25
    Residential Design and Consultant knowhow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    You forgot option #6 - tie into city water and use the well only for irrigation.
    Thanks for the suggestion, but...

    It's not an option. I can't afford it now 15K to 20K. And it would ruin my beautifully landscaped yard, no easy access to the main.

  11. #26
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knowhow View Post
    ...why can't my existing 8" x 48" tank be considered the contact tank?
    It is and can be, but since it holds less than 10 gallons it doesn't have a whole lot of contact time. It all depends on how much iron you have, how much air is getting injected and through what range of pressure, and how fast you use the water.

    Iron removal is a messy business and there is no such thing as no maintenance or even low maintenance. It will gum up the inside of the piping, tanks, and softener.

  12. #27
    Residential Design and Consultant knowhow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I don't know how many air injection systems you've worked on other than yours but I have worked on a few over the years. I don't like them but..

    How does the injector see more pressure when it is between the pump and the pressure tank when the pump is controlled by the pressure switch on the tank tee? And an injector works with gpm based on the pressure range the pump is operated at.

    The mixing/retention tank I posted the link to is a 12" dia tank only 65" tall and is equivalent to a 120 gallon retention tank. And the contact time is greatly reduced to damn near none, Plus it has 3/4" bottom drain.

    I suggest maybe using the softener to remove the iron instead of air injection.
    "I don't know how many air injection systems you've worked on other than yours but I have worked on a few over the years. I don't like them but.."

    Neither do I !

    "The mixing/retention tank I posted the link to is a 12" dia tank only 65" tall and is equivalent to a 120 gallon retention tank. And the contact time is greatly reduced to damn near none, Plus it has 3/4" bottom drain."

    I really want that tank. Think they'll trade me for mine if I throw in some other spare conditioning components I have lying around?

    "I suggest maybe using the softener to remove the iron instead of air injection"

    I don't mean to be cynical here but,

    I thought both my pH neut tank and my softener were also acting as my filtration media and iron removal tools, already.
    I am assuming that the air injection is only oxidizing the ferrous iron so that the ferric iron can be removed by my pH and softener media when either are backwashed.
    I am certain that the air injection is not actually removing any iron. Ahem, except for the amounts of precipitated iron sediment that my bladder style pressure tank have captured and held captive, resulting in my current predicament.

    Thanks again for everyone's input.

    I'm still not certain on which way to go but I have to determine the simplest, most effective, least costly solution, even if that requires replacing the P tank in the near future. At least I can be up and running and then I could test out the effectiveness of the air injector before and after the P tank, and I could see if I can configure the system to use a CSV and run some trials.

  13. #28
    Residential Design and Consultant knowhow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    It is and can be, but since it holds less than 10 gallons it doesn't have a whole lot of contact time. It all depends on how much iron you have, how much air is getting injected and through what range of pressure, and how fast you use the water.

    Iron removal is a messy business and there is no such thing as no maintenance or even low maintenance. It will gum up the inside of the piping, tanks, and softener.
    Thanks for bearing with me...I'll be back...having skipped b'fast and lunch to do this...it's now time to eat and digest both the food and all this info!!

  14. #29
    Residential Design and Consultant knowhow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    It is and can be, but since it holds less than 10 gallons it doesn't have a whole lot of contact time. It all depends on how much iron you have, how much air is getting injected and through what range of pressure, and how fast you use the water.

    Iron removal is a messy business and there is no such thing as no maintenance or even low maintenance. It will gum up the inside of the piping, tanks, and softener.
    Good to know. I have another tank just like it, not being used. Could I just install it in series and would this help?

    What if I added a control valve to the additional tank it so it could backwash out the sediment?

    I copied and pasted this idea below from the other thread I have going here :

    quoted from a post by craigpump

    "I'm not a treatment guy by any means, but he has to deal with iron issue before he puts in a new tank or eventually the same issue will occur. I have seen guys install a short 42 gallon galvanized tank before the Amtrol with a micronizer before the galvanized tank. They plumb the inlet into the middle port and take water out the top of the tank over to the tank T on the Amtrol. Their theory is that the iron will drop out in the galvanized tank which can then be drained off. I personally have never done it."

    What do you think? Do you think it should work?

  15. #30
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knowhow View Post
    quoted from a post by craigpump

    "I'm not a treatment guy by any means, but he has to deal with iron issue before he puts in a new tank or eventually the same issue will occur. I have seen guys install a short 42 gallon galvanized tank before the Amtrol with a micronizer before the galvanized tank. They plumb the inlet into the middle port and take water out the top of the tank over to the tank T on the Amtrol. Their theory is that the iron will drop out in the galvanized tank which can then be drained off. I personally have never done it."

    What do you think? Do you think it should work?
    What Craig described there is a contact tank. Since he uses the top port for the exit, the tank will not hold air so it is just like a waterlogged tank. You would still need a bladder tank after it as he said.

    You could use a galvanized tank like he said but instead of using the top port, use the highest side port to exit. That way it still holds air so it offers drawdown capacity. The air then gives you some push for when you flush it. At the bottom of every pump cycle a little air will burp out.

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