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Thread: Sizing and Spec Help? Water Softener

  1. #16
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mialynette2003 View Post
    Think of it this way, 1 CF of resin will yield 30,000 using 15 lbs of salt. The same CF of resin will yield 20,000 using only 6 lbs of salt. So you would need a 4 CF softener to get 80k using 6 lbs of salt and that doesn't even include a reserve. IMO it is too big,
    And that would be roughly 24 lbs of salt per month but, unless I'm recalling the wrong thread, you said 70K was needed for 6-7 days between regenerations. So there would be a reserve because you actually get 80K (from what you said above, 20K per ft and 4 cuft = 80K).


    Quote Originally Posted by mialynette2003 View Post
    Gary would have you size the unit based on every faucet in the house flowing at the same time. How many times in your lifetime would you have every faucet running at the same time? That means if you have 2 bathrooms both tubs will be running, both toilets, both sinks, the kitchen sink, the dishwasher, the clothes washer, the icemaker and all outside hose bibbs if they go through the softener.
    That is not true. Here's a link to my Sizing page, show me where it says what you are claiming I say or do.
    http://www.qualitywaterassociates.co...izingchart.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by mialynette2003 View Post
    Personal, I set my units up to use 8 lbs per CF and don't subtract the reserve. The added 2 lbs are my reserve. I have 5 people living in the house with 15 GPG hardness. Gary would have me install a 2+ CF unit. I have a 1 CF system and don't get hardness unless it runs out of salt.
    Since I think you are selling metered control valves, they regenerate based on gallons and the gallons are based on the K of capacity. The reserve is usually one day's worth of gallons. Now if you have a control valve with variable reserve you don't subtract anything.
    What you are doing is covering yer butt by dosing at 2 extra lbs per cuft of resin. In this case (the 4 cuft you mentioned) that would add 8 lbs of salt to each regeneration because you're not sizing correctly but...

    Based on what you've said about 70K (the max operating K for an "80K" softener is 75K), you aren't getting that 70K with much less than 45 lbs of salt per cuft per regeneration.

    BTW, the salt efficiency is 75/45 = 1666.66666 grains per lb. The 80/24 = 3333 grains per lb and that means a substantial salt savings over time plus, fewer regenerations which saves water too if you know how to set the minutes for each cycle position properly, and your control valve allows it.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  2. #17
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Gladly..... Click here for information on plumbing code constant SFR gpm sizing requirements. The gpm needed varies widely from one code to another (there are 4 codes) and, it is calculated as if every faucet in the house is running at once.

    This was pulled from the link you provided. You push to size units based on SFR of the home which means every fauset running. How many times on your life will you have every fauset on at the same time?

    Why can't you get over the fact that I don't set my units the same as you. Do you have a hard on for me? Is that why you always harrass me?

  3. #18
    DIY Junior Member stevenjer's Avatar
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    Hi Freddi why not try with an electronic descaler or no salt conditioner? thatís what we did and now we donít have to worry about buying salt every month, it just runs in the background with no problem, no maintenance. We get the Scalewatcher 3 Star It cost less than $600. Itís cool. Weíre happy. We found them at aquagenesisusa.com fyi. Hope it helps you!

  4. #19
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mialynette2003 View Post
    Gladly..... Click here for information on plumbing code constant SFR gpm sizing requirements. The gpm needed varies widely from one code to another (there are 4 codes) and, it is calculated as if every faucet in the house is running at once.

    This was pulled from the link you provided. You push to size units based on SFR of the home which means every fauset running. How many times on your life will you have every fauset on at the same time?

    Why can't you get over the fact that I don't set my units the same as you. Do you have a hard on for me? Is that why you always harrass me?
    No I did/do not size for every faucet running. Maybe you missed this part, especially the red part:
    A softener, or filter, has to be sized by the constant SFR gpm of the resin or mineral to be able to successfully treat the peak demand gpm that your plumbing can deliver; or actually, your peak demand gpm water use as a family.

    I can't get over how you set your units because you do it wrong and, you always say I'm wrong; the above is a good example. I always sized based on what fixtures were in the house, the number of people living there, the age of the kids AND HOW the family used water.

    The Clack WS-1 records the maximum gpm ever run through it, and none of my customers ever exceeded the SFR gpm I told them they would need. Many got up to within a gallon or two. I know because I asked them to check it and compare it to the SFR gpm on the page I linked to. I also had anyone that contacted me with a hard water complaint check the recorded max. I had competitors' customers with hard water complaints that found they had exceeded the SFR of their softeners though.

    Also, in this thread, there is no need to mention SFR because your "80K" will exceed his peak demand gpm unless he is running a garden hose that has soft water and all his bathrooms etc. using water at the same time. So your mention of SFR had nothing to do with what we were talking about; that was salt efficiency, it is another but separate part of correctly sizing a softener.

    BTW, I told you years ago I was trying to help you, and I still am, and you still mistakenly think I'm harassing you. Some day I might get into how you incorrectly calculate compensated hardness...
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #20
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I can't get over how you set your units because you do it wrong and, you always say I'm wrong; the above is a good example. ...
    That's funny. I started my own business 7 years ago and have increased every year. If I were doing it wrong the whole time one would think I would lose more customers than I gain per year.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    The Clack WS-1 records the maximum gpm ever run through it, and none of my customers ever exceeded the SFR gpm I told them they would need. Many got up to within a gallon or two. I know because I asked them to check it and compare it to the SFR gpm on the page I linked to. I also had anyone that contacted me with a hard water complaint check the recorded max. I had competitors' customers with hard water complaints that found they had exceeded the SFR of their softeners though....
    Nothing like toting your own horn.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    BTW, I told you years ago I was trying to help you, and I still am, and you still mistakenly think I'm harassing you. Some day I might get into how you incorrectly calculate compensated hardness...
    That's your problem. You try to force someone to do it your way. I don't want your help, I don't need your help, nor do I care for your help. BTW, I get the compensated hardness out of a book just like you get the SFR for a home out of a book. So maybe your book is wrong?

  6. #21
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    I started as a salesman for a dealer in mid 1989, then very soon I quit and looked into starting my own dealership and went broke in a few months. Months later after talking to many people in the business I figured out what I did wrong and took a salesman job with a large regional company and I got fired there a year later although I ranked #2 in sales out of 78 stores. I had met an old guy distributor there and I called him about buying from him and I started my dealership. I used him as my only supplier for many years and when I had a doubt or question I called him until he sold out in the late 1990s.

    I grew until 2007 and then picked back up until 2010 but..

    For many years I sized just as you are but when I starting selling over the internet one of my first sales was in a house with 5 bathrooms and 6 adults including 2 master baths with 6 body sprays each and a large jetted tub.

    That was way over my head so I called my the old guy distributor (he'd been a dealer for 20+ years before becoming a dist.) for help in sizing and.he mentioned SFR and I said "John, what the hell is SFR, Slusser's what"? He says Service Flow Rate, I'm sure you were taught about it. I had gone to school many times with that regional company, even belonged to the WQA and subscribed to 3 industry magazines. He went on to say but like most guys you paid no attention to it but you better now or you will have a lot of unhappy long distance customers. That sale was in 2002 before I had a web site (9/2003).

    BTW, I never had any book, only the those magazines and a good memory.

    I used total revenue and profit as my yardstick to measure growth, not a loss or gain of customers. Frankly you are smarter than me because I wouldn't know how to do that. How do you do that? And why would you do that?

    A... that would be tooting, tooting my own horn. .
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #22
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    A softener, or filter, has to be sized by the constant SFR gpm of the resin or mineral to be able to successfully treat the peak demand gpm that your plumbing can deliver; or actually, your peak demand gpm water use as a family.

    I suspect that the issue here is one of confusion. The filter chosen will have a constant SFR/GPM that depends on the size of the tank/valve and the type of resin. The home has an SFR/GPM flow rate that depends on the size of the piping, the output pressure and volume of the pump (or water supply) the number of fixtures and the fixture flow rate. The filtration equipment has to be sized according to the SFR/GPM of the residence or business it is installed in. Codes want the equipment to be able to handle the full SFR and honestly, its going to be overkill because hardly anyone opens every faucet and flushes every toilet in the house at the same time. So, the code is the code is the code and I'd bet that 90% of the guys installing equipment use the "close enough" method most of the time.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  8. #23
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Yes, and I'm sure you recall our numerous disagreements here over the years due to me not sizing to "the code" as you insisted I should.

    In commercial or residential I used my version of the fixture count method based on what fixtures were normally used simultaneously.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I started as a salesman for a dealer in mid 1989, then very soon I quit and looked into starting my own dealership and went broke in a few months. Months later after talking to many people in the business I figured out what I did wrong and took a salesman job with a large regional company and I got fired there a year later although I ranked #2 in sales out of 78 stores. I had met an old guy distributor there and I called him about buying from him and I started my dealership. I used him as my only supplier for many years and when I had a doubt or question I called him until he sold out in the late 1990s.

    I grew until 2007 and then picked back up until 2010 but..

    For many years I sized just as you are but when I starting selling over the internet one of my first sales was in a house with 5 bathrooms and 6 adults including 2 master baths with 6 body sprays each and a large jetted tub.

    That was way over my head so I called my the old guy distributor (he'd been a dealer for 20+ years before becoming a dist.) for help in sizing and.he mentioned SFR and I said "John, what the hell is SFR, Slusser's what"? He says Service Flow Rate, I'm sure you were taught about it. I had gone to school many times with that regional company, even belonged to the WQA and subscribed to 3 industry magazines. He went on to say but like most guys you paid no attention to it but you better now or you will have a lot of unhappy long distance customers. That sale was in 2002 before I had a web site (9/2003).

    BTW, I never had any book, only the those magazines and a good memory.

    I used total revenue and profit as my yardstick to measure growth, not a loss or gain of customers. Frankly you are smarter than me because I wouldn't know how to do that. How do you do that? And why would you do that?

    A... that would be tooting, tooting my own horn. .
    If you grew up in the water industry like I did (2 years with Kinetico dealer first as a warehouse Mgr than a svc tech/install...7 yrs with an EcoWater dealer as the Svc Mgr....2 yrs with US Filter as the Svc Mgr...2 years as svc tech/installer/salesman for a Reionator dealer...then I moved to Fla where I sold for an Eco dealer than an Ionics dealer before opening my own company 7 years ago. I did not fail as you did because I not only learned how they work, I also learned how to install and size them. This is why I am still in business.

  10. #25
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Well, hands down, you have me beat what with all that previous management experience, although it's in a warehouse and service departments. I'm thinking you might be a bit weak in sales.

    That time as a service manager and the brands of the equipment is probably why you cover your butt at the customer's expense while paying little attention to good salt efficiency.

    I forgot, haven't you forgot your Army experience?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #26
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Well, hands down, you have me beat what with all that previous management experience, although it's in a warehouse and service departments. I'm thinking you might be a bit weak in sales.

    That time as a service manager and the brands of the equipment is probably why you cover your butt at the customer's expense while paying little attention to good salt efficiency.

    I forgot, haven't you forgot your Army experience?
    I knew you would get in your cheap shots. I have salesman awards to prove you wrong once again. BTW, I did not do water treatment while in the army so why mention it. I'm done with this. It is not helping anyone.

  12. #27
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenjer View Post
    Hi Freddi why not try with an electronic descaler or no salt conditioner? thatís what we did and now we donít have to worry about buying salt every month, it just runs in the background with no problem, no maintenance. We get the ********** It cost less than $600. Itís cool. Weíre happy. We found them at ********** fyi. Hope it helps you!
    LOL, nice commercial.

  13. #28
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Freddi, here is the programming guide you were asking about.

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