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Thread: Sizing and Spec Help? Water Softener

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member Freddi's Avatar
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    Default Sizing and Spec Help? Water Softener

    Thank you in advance for your help, I have been reading alot here, and see that there are quite a few people in the know, and have been very helpful in the past. I hope to be able to tap that myself!


    Here are the usage particulars:

    - 3700 sq.ft. home with 3.5 bathrooms, 2 with bathtub, 2 Showers with water saver heads
    - 1 bath, and 2 showers a day, typically.
    - 5 people
    - 1" copper softener loop
    - Based on water usage, for the previous year, (not including irrigation) averages about 500 gallons a day. (I'm guessing the kids take too long in the shower)

    Here are the water particulars (municipal water - Blaine, MN)

    - hardness (grains) 18-20
    - iron (ppm): 0.00


    After I talked to the City Water Super, he commented that the iron is 0.0 for 9 months out of the year, but during the summer they have to use extra wells, and that they poly during those summer months, but I might see some days that approach 1-2ppm.


    My concerns; My family will be getting smaller in the next three years. I don't want a system that will be grossly oversized. (I don't mind if it back washes more than once a week, for the next couple of years) From the various calculators out there, I seem to be coming in with recommendations that vary between a 80K and 110K.

    Should I stick with a 80K unit? Is that too big? Standard resin ok, or consider a better stuff, for the longevity? Turbolator a good idea too handle the occasional Iron the system will see? I do like the idea of a larger resin tank, to facilitate better flows. I will probably pair this with a Fleck7000 head.

    Point me in the right direction...Please?

    Take care.

  2. #2
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Talke your 500 GPD and times by the hardness of 20=10,000 grains of removal per day. If you go 7 days between regens, that's an 80K system with a reserve.

  3. #3
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    That will give him terrible salt efficiency.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  4. #4
    DIY Junior Member Freddi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    That will give him terrible salt efficiency.
    So what should I consider instead? Bigger unit?

    I understand the math above, but it doesn't take the occasional iron dosing. Should I adjust for that?

  5. #5
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    If they chlorinate the water there wont be any iron in your water. Most water companies do chlorinate.

    When you say "poly" for the summer, that usually means no chlorine and they are sequestering the iron with a chemical so you don't 'see' results of the iron. A potential problem is when the water is heated, the iron might get out of the chemical encapsulation and cause stains.

    Click the red Click Here link in my signature for more info on sizing and salt efficiency.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  6. #6
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    The problem with using less salt per CF is the higher chance of having hardness bleed through. Salt is about $ .10 per pound so I would ratner use $5-10 more per year than have hardness bleed through from trying to save a little.

  7. #7
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    That's nice of you to spend your customer's money without them knowing it. And you have said here that you go with higher salt use so you don't have hard water complaints.

    When you size correctly you can also reduce the water usage per regeneration. The "80K" you suggest here is going to have to use all but its maximum 75K capacity.and require all but 45 lbs per regeneration every 6-7 days depending on the reserve.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  8. #8
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    I never said what salt doze to use. Besides, talk about spending customers money, the way you set up units they will regen more often and that causes wear and tear on the valve. So you may save a little salt each year, but I save in repair costs over the years because of less regens. Tell you what we should do, you give your advise and I'll give mine. You don't say anything about mine and I wouldn't say anything about yours. Are you man enough to except that?

  9. #9
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Past history would suggest a negative response.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  10. #10
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mialynette2003 View Post
    I never said what salt doze to use. Besides, talk about spending customers money, the way you set up units they will regen more often and that causes wear and tear on the valve. So you may save a little salt each year, but I save in repair costs over the years because of less regens. Tell you what we should do, you give your advise and I'll give mine. You don't say anything about mine and I wouldn't say anything about yours. Are you man enough to except that?
    I've noticed you conveniently didn't mention the salt dose but you have in the past. How does you not telling the OP help him?

    What would the salt dose be if you don't believe me when I say all but 45 lbs?

    Where do you see my sizing causing more frequent regeneration than your sizing? I would propose a larger than your "80K" with its max of 75K @ 45lbs. It would be sized for regeneration every 8 days and you have said as few as 4 days and mentioned every 6-7 days IIRC.

    I'll tell you what we should do, we need to get you to size properly and stop your customers from using so much extra salt and water so you feel better.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #11
    DIY Junior Member Freddi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Past history would suggest a negative response.

    Did I ask something wrong? I don't know what I did...Just looking for some help.

  12. #12
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Gary, I'm not going to get in yet another pissing contest with you. You argue just to argue and are constantly bashing others. Does that help th OP. There are other on this site the use the same salt dose as I do. Get over yourself. You are not the softener guru.

  13. #13
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddi View Post
    Did I ask something wrong? I don't know what I did...Just looking for some help.
    No you didn't ask anything wrong. I have my way of doing things and Gary has his. He just tries to force folks to do it his way. The real problem his he is not man enough to allows other to post their ideas.

  14. #14
    DIY Junior Member Freddi's Avatar
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    Let me see if I'm grasping the right things here...

    Upon looking at the charts, it seems as though that there are diminishing returns on trying to knock off the bad ions with salt ions. Is the 'discussion' on whether it is better to have more media, or to use more salt with less 'good' done per pound of salt used?

    Using my example...say I go with a 80K unit (not decided yet), in order to get to close to a 80k softening, i would regen every 6-7 days, and use 45# of salt. (taken from above) Is that saying that I would literally use a bag of salt every week? (or is 45# a brine equivalent, where water is a major component of the weight measurement?)

    What is I use a 80K, the lower salt dose to get better salt usage efficiency, and regen every third day? Is that a better compromise?

    I only started with the 80K unit because that seemed to be what the various calculators pointed me towards, and that 80K is getting close to the biggest size I could find from the online vendors that are prevalent. I'm guessing that after you get more than 2.0cuft, the tank probably jumps up a size, and starts to get bigger than can be easily shipped. (True?)

    What size tank does 2.0, 3.0 or 4.0 Cuft of media take?

    Again, I apologize if I kicked the hornets nest...I really am just trying to properly size, and purchase a good unit. I don't want cheap, I don't want unneeded waste, and I sure as hell don't want a system that I pay for proprietary parts and half assed service.

    Thanks to all in advance.

    Justin

  15. #15
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Think of it this way, 1 CF of resin will yield 30,000 using 15 lbs of salt. The same CF of resin will yield 20,000 using only 6 lbs of salt. So you would need a 4 CF softener to get 80k using 6 lbs of salt and that doesn't even include a reserve. IMO it is too big, Gary would have you size the unit based on every faucet in the house flowing at the same time. How many times in your lifetime would you have every faucet running at the same time? That means if you have 2 bathrooms both tubs will be running, both toilets, both sinks, the kitchen sink, the dishwasher, the clothes washer, the icemaker and all outside hose bibbs if they go through the softener. Personal, I set my units up to use 8 lbs per CF and don't subtract the reserve. The added 2 lbs are my reserve. I have 5 people living in the house with 15 GPG hardness. Gary would have me install a 2+ CF unit. I have a 1 CF system and don't get hardness unless it runs out of salt.

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