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Thread: New Champion 4

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member C@TCH's Avatar
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    Default New Champion 4

    I just installed this toilet, why is it and what's the purpose of the flapper being so high inside the tank that it leaves almost 4" of water. Would it not flush even better if all the water in tank was pushed down into bowl like most toilets.

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    DIY Senior Member SteveW's Avatar
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    This is common with low-flow toilets. They are designed so that there is a high "head pressure" as I think it is called -- that is, there is a high column of water in the tank that basically forces the water into the bowl faster to ensure good flushing. So -- it's more about how high the level of water is in the tank, not what percentage of the water actually leaves the tank.

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    I believe it would work better if the water entered at the bottom of the tank.

    The original 1.6 gallon toilets in the 90's used a dam around the flush valve to prevent all the water from draining from the tank. Rather then use a quick closing flapper, like most do now, they installed a plastic dam that only allowed the upper water to flow over. Frankly those did very poorly.

    But then there is marketing.
    TOTO was the first to 3"
    American Standard had their 3" with a wobbly flush tower.
    Eljer then can out with their 3", and then Bain Capital closed those plants and merged Eljer into American Standard.
    Kohler came out with 3.25" so their's could be the biggest.
    American Standard put a funnel on their 3" and called it a 4"

    Has anyone ever poured oil into their car engine using a funnel?
    Did using the funnel make the oil pour quicker? Not for me. The funnel the gas station gives you is 4" at the top and 1" at the bottom. It pours out like a 1"

    Does the water need to pour quicker?
    Good question.
    Kohler now has a flush valve less then 2" with a big canister on top which seems to work fine.
    TOTO has the Aquia dual flush with a 2" and it works fine too.
    There are so many composite features that go into a product that need to be tuned as a single component.

  4. #4
    DIY Junior Member C@TCH's Avatar
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    It works good way better than the h2Options or Cadet3 I tried.
    Only problem tank to bowl gasket is leaking, bolts are tight, don't want to over tighten and break tank.
    What should I do, change the new gasket.

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    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C@TCH View Post
    It works good way better than the h2Options or Cadet3 I tried.
    Only problem tank to bowl gasket is leaking, bolts are tight, don't want to over tighten and break tank.
    What should I do, change the new gasket.
    Are you sure it's leaking there or only when flushed? I have a Cadet 3 that leaked from the flush valve gasket even after sanding any high spots. It was brand new, got the tank replaced but since it's a Fluid master valve, I used the gasket from a kit which fixed the leak. Don't know if it was the tank or the gasket that did the trick.
    Bill
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    DIY Junior Member C@TCH's Avatar
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    No it seems to be dripping at gasket when I peek in with a flashlight from the side.

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    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C@TCH View Post
    No it seems to be dripping at gasket when I peek in with a flashlight from the side.
    Well, it sounds like your leaking from the tank or by the flush valve gasket like I was. Guys here suggested sanding around all holes in the tank and trying to tighten up on the flush valve nut, neither helped on the OEM tank. The gasket that comes with the FM kit looked better to me as it has a lip that extends a bit into the hole in the tank. It was only $10 or $11 at HD and you have a spare flush valve.

    Looking at the Champion 4 parts list, etc., it appears to be an all together different looking flush valve. If the hole in the tank is the same size, the gasket "might" be the same??
    Last edited by wptski; 04-01-2013 at 10:08 AM.
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    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    One of Jamie Love's recommended steps when installing is to snug up the flush valve nut with pliers; Toto recommends 1/4 turn beyond hand tight. Sometimes, that's a source of leaks.

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    DIY Junior Member C@TCH's Avatar
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    I took tank off removed tank to bowl gasket that came with Champion, installed another gasket from a previous install, all works great. I think the gasket that comes with Champion is to thick preventing bolts to be snugged down tight.

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    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C@TCH View Post
    I took tank off removed tank to bowl gasket that came with Champion, installed another gasket from a previous install, all works great. I think the gasket that comes with Champion is to thick preventing bolts to be snugged down tight.
    The tank bolts should be tightened evenly till the tank makes contact with the bowl slightly. Going too far can crack the tank. While installing the bowl on my As Cadet 3, I broke the cast iron toilet flange and it didn't take much effort at all, just plain stupidity!!
    Bill
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  11. #11
    DIY Junior Member Whitlow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I believe it would work better if the water entered at the bottom of the tank.

    The original 1.6 gallon toilets in the 90's used a dam around the flush valve to prevent all the water from draining from the tank. Rather then use a quick closing flapper, like most do now, they installed a plastic dam that only allowed the upper water to flow over. Frankly those did very poorly.

    But then there is marketing.
    TOTO was the first to 3"
    American Standard had their 3" with a wobbly flush tower.
    Eljer then can out with their 3", and then Bain Capital closed those plants and merged Eljer into American Standard.
    Kohler came out with 3.25" so their's could be the biggest.
    American Standard put a funnel on their 3" and called it a 4"

    Has anyone ever poured oil into their car engine using a funnel?
    Did using the funnel make the oil pour quicker? Not for me. The funnel the gas station gives you is 4" at the top and 1" at the bottom. It pours out like a 1"

    Does the water need to pour quicker?
    Good question.
    Kohler now has a flush valve less then 2" with a big canister on top which seems to work fine.
    TOTO has the Aquia dual flush with a 2" and it works fine too.
    There are so many composite features that go into a product that need to be tuned as a single component.
    For comparison the new Delta Toilets (Prelude, Corrente) are using a 3-3/4 flush valve

    Last edited by Terry; 11-07-2013 at 03:35 PM.

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