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Thread: Troubleshoot/Repair or Replace 10+ year old Hague?

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member Hugh Hempel's Avatar
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    Default Troubleshoot/Repair or Replace 10+ year old Hague?

    Greetings,

    Newcomer to the forum. Impressed by the knowledge and candor expressed by the regulars!

    I have really bad "hard water" build up on the shower glass and water fixtures throughout my recently purchased home.

    I inherited a Hague 13baq. I am guessing it is 10+ years old.

    The unit was inactive/unplugged (not bypassed) for quite some time.

    I recently restarted it (added salt) and the unit appears to be recharging. It is obvious, however, that I am still not getting "soft" water. I have also seen virtually no drop in salt levels for more than a month (no salt bridge)...

    More specifics:
    • "City Water" (it is well sourced nearby)
    • Home Occupants: 7
    • Water Usage: 11-14,000g/mo (466g/day average) peak is 1000g/day est.
    • 5.5 Baths
    • Very Heavy Laundry
    • Very Heavy Kitchen Usage
    • Water Pressure; Excellent 60psi+
    • Main Line Pipe Size: 1-1/4"
    • Current Hague Inlets: 1"
    • NO LOCAL HAGUE DEALER


    Here is the water analysis from the city:

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    My questions:
    1. Should I spend the time/energy to troubleshoot the Hague device given it's mfg and lack of information/parts?
    2. If yes, can someone recommend a good troubleshooting guide for Hague? Where can I source parts?
    3. If no, I am looking for help sizing/selecting a replacement system...
    4. What size system should I consider? (my math indicates 2.0+cuft)
    5. I am open to TWIN tanks. Should I consider (require)?
    6. Any strong preference of brand?
    7. Does my water analysis suggest any special "features" or prefilters?
    8. What about "turbolators" or special resins?


    My local water authority also suggested that my spotting problems could be created by SILICA or other "solids" that are "not removed" by a softener system. Can anyone comment on the truth in this statement??? Perhaps a combination of Salt Based Water Softening plus some other forms of filtration is required????

    EDIT: Water authority indicated that while SILICA is not analyzed in the above data, there is evidence that high amounts of SILICA are present in the system.

    Thanks a million in advance!
    Last edited by Hugh Hempel; 03-20-2013 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Missing Data Point

  2. #2
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Hempel View Post
    [*]Should I spend the time/energy to troubleshoot the Hague device given it's mfg and lack of information/parts?If you don't have a local dealer, I would say to get another unit that the parts are readily available for furture repairs.[*]If yes, can someone recommend a good troubleshooting guide for Hague? Where can I source parts?I have some manuals for the Hague but the parts will be hard to come by. Not all dealers are willing to sell just parts.[*]If no, I am looking for help sizing/selecting a replacement system...[*]What size system should I consider? (my math indicates 2.0+cuft)[*]I am open to TWIN tanks. Should I consider (require)?I would go with a twin because of the amount of people.[*]Any strong preference of brand?Fleck or Clack[*]Does my water analysis suggest any special "features" or prefilters?Unless you are wanting to remove chlorine, no prefilter is needed.[*]What about "turbolators" or special resins?No turbulator is needed but if you do not remove the chlorine prior to the softener with may want to consider 10% crosslink resin.[/LIST]

    My local water authority also suggested that my spotting problems could be created by SILICA or other "solids" that are "not removed" by a softener system. Can anyone comment on the truth in this statement??? Perhaps a combination of Salt Based Water Softening plus some other forms of filtration is required????

    EDIT: Water authority indicated that while SILICA is not analyzed in the above data, there is evidence that high amounts of SILICA are present in the system.

    Thanks a million in advance!
    I would look into renting to see you your problem is with the hardness vs silica before purchasing.

  3. #3
    DIY Junior Member Hugh Hempel's Avatar
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    Default Clarification on "renting"...?

    Quote Originally Posted by mialynette2003 View Post
    I would look into renting to see you your problem is with the hardness vs silica before purchasing.
    Thanks a million for the thoughtful reply!

    I had arrived at largely the same conclusions.

    Are you suggesting "renting" a water softener system? or something else? I have not heard of the option to rent a system although I agree with the idea...

    My research about qualified folks here in Reno has not turned up any good candidates, so I suspect that I may find it difficult to find someone to rent from...

    Assuming I go with a twin system, would you agree that a pair of 1.0 cuft tanks would suffice? I have the space and budget for a pair of 1.5 if recommended...

    IF my problem has more to do with Silica than with hardness, can you recommend a solution? Is this simply whole whose backwash filtration?

    Thanks again!!!

    EDIT: Apparently my Silica levels are in the neighborhood of 60. Also it appears that Silica removal on a home/usage of my size is cost prohibitive/difficult with today's tech (mostly RO)... So, for now, I am going to focus on water softening alone. I am headed down the path towards a new Fleck system. Only decisions left at this point are twins versus single and what SIZE.
    Last edited by Hugh Hempel; 03-21-2013 at 02:22 PM. Reason: New Info

  4. #4
    DIY Junior Member catman's Avatar
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    I don't see any point in renting something, I am sure there are some basic tests that will tell you whether silica is the issue or not. Have you talked to your neighbors? At any rate, in my house I ingherited a Hague 23BAQ unit and there is a receipt that it was purchased in 2002. So it is at least 10-11 years old. Mine had a faulty computer and the bypass was not working properly, so I took it out and put in a new system. I get postcards from the local Haugue dealer every month saying it is time for service, so they must know it is broken! EDIT: sorry did not see your edit with the updated silica info... .
    Last edited by catman; 03-21-2013 at 03:35 PM.

  5. #5
    DIY Junior Member Hugh Hempel's Avatar
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    Consensus seems to be REPLACEMENT and I tend to concur. I got similar advice from a local dealer I found that has a pretty good reputation.

    My neighbors generally confirm great benefit from a traditional softener system.

    I am headed down the path of a Fleck 9100 system. Leaning towards a twin in the 1.0 cuft range. Main remaining question is resin type. I have read conflicting info about the value of SST-60 or other resin upgrades...

    Any input would be welcome. Hope to purchase in the next day or so.

    Thanks again to all for comments and I will report back on progress and results for sure!

  6. #6
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    That is a lot of water and hardness! In your situation it is especially important to carefully consider the design to ensure your (more than the average system) money is well-spent and results in excellent performance.

    Using your numbers of 466 - 1000 gallons and 68 - 90 grains of hardness your daily capacity requirements vary from 31K to 90K grains PER DAY. You are definitely in twin softener territory. Even with a 3.5 cu ft twin salted at 8 lbs for 24K X 3.5 = 84K of capacity per tank. You could regenerate between once every three days to more than once a day.

    The Fleck 9100 series is one obvious solution, but you have 1-1/4" plumbing and that is a 3/4" valve. It is best to get a valve with internal ports as large as your plumbing. Perhaps the Fleck 9500 series has this? I am not sure. You'll need to check into which twin control valve is suitable for your pipe size.

    As to the SST-60, I would definitely give it a try despite the added expense. You will be going through a lot of salt and water. Anything you can do to improve your salt use vs. water quality would be a good idea, and SST-60 should do just that. You could probably salt at 6 lbs/cu ft and get the same or better water quality as salting at 8 lbs/cu ft with regular resin.

    Good luck

    Edit: there is no way 1 cu ft per tank is enough for your applicaiton
    Lifespeed

  7. #7
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Fleck 9500/1700SXT is the only twin tank valve I am aware of with ports as large as your pipe size at 1-1/2". It is an expensive light commercial valve at about $1800 just for the valve. A complete system based on this valve would probably approach $2500 depending on tank size and resin quantity.

    But you have described a lot of hardness and water use. If the numbers you give are correct a lesser softener will easily be overwhelmed, inefficient, and will drop water pressure due to being undersized and leak hardness when it's Service Flow Rate is exceeded.
    Last edited by lifespeed; 03-22-2013 at 10:54 AM.
    Lifespeed

  8. #8
    DIY Junior Member Hugh Hempel's Avatar
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    Default Maybe a math or misunderstanding about hardness?

    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post

    Using your numbers of 466 - 1000 gallons and 68 - 90 grains of hardness your daily capacity requirements vary from 31K to 90K grains PER DAY. You are definitely in twin softener territory. Even with a 3.5 cu ft twin salted at 8 lbs for 24K X 3.5 = 84K of capacity per tank. You could regenerate between once every three days to more than once a day.
    Thanks for this awesome reply! I think that there is a math problem or misunderstanding... and I think it is obviously CRITICAL to my design.

    My water analysis above indicates a hardness of 68-94 mg/L(ppm). I was under the assumption that this hardness translates to a maximum of 5.5 GRAINS (94/17.1). Therefore my peak usage at 1000 gals. would be 5500 grains/day max (2500 grains typical).

    IF my math is accurate, my system requirements from a "grains" point of view ONLY is perhaps only 32,000 grains (1.0 cuft). I would lean towards 40,000 grains capacity.

    All of that said, I am reluctant to introduce a 3/4" port into my home at the source. Therefore, my challenge is how to combine a relatively modest CUFT system with a 1" minimum valve.

    According to the 9100sxt spec sheet from Pentair, there is a 1" internally ported version of this valve. OhioPure APPEARS to offer this valve in it's product line but I have not yet confirmed that they are referring to an INTERNAL 1" port of simply the bypass valve size. Will confirm shortly. The TANK port size is obviously a related issue.

    Other online suppliers claim that the 9100 is solely available in 3/4" but I am not YET convinced...

    Please confirm my MAJOR assumption above about my GRAINS. This must be the starting point.

    Thanks again!

  9. #9
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    The 9100 is available with 1" meterering, the valves internal porting remains the same. The 3/4" meter has a high end limit of accuracy at 15 GPM, the 1" is much higher. Both will flow the same, the meter causes little resitance. You are in a difficult spot and their are some very good solutions coming in the near future. I have an excellent idea but it is not allowed to be sold online. Check your PM, I can get you set up with a system that will work just fine with some local dealers.

  10. #10
    DIY Junior Member Hugh Hempel's Avatar
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    I will look for a PM. Thanks... I am quite surprised that there is not a "standard" 1" internal port offering in this industry without going to commercial... The bigger metering size is useful, but why on earth would the internal port not "be matched"...

  11. #11
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Oops, wrong units. Your hardness is only 5.5 grains for 2500 to 5500 grains per day. You must still consider a large enough system to maintain an adequate service flow rate. A 2 cu ft unit gets you 13 GPM, which may not serve all your fixtures simultaneously but should handle real-world useage. With the hardness units error corrected I would instead carefully consider the maximum SFR you will need and add some extra capacity to size your system. You could conceivably get by with a single tank system, but with your high useage the twin will still be more efficient.

    The system requirements are determined not only by Grains Per Gallon but also by the maximum flow rate you will need with a reasonable worst-case combination of simultaneous water use.
    I would follow Dittoheads advice as he is definitely the expert on water softeners.
    Lifespeed

  12. #12
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Hempel View Post
    I will look for a PM. Thanks... I am quite surprised that there is not a "standard" 1" internal port offering in this industry without going to commercial... The bigger metering size is useful, but why on earth would the internal port not "be matched"...
    The Fleck 7000SXT has 1-1/4" internal ports, I believe, and is quite affordable and works very well. But it is a single tank system. Single tank systems are adequate for the vast majority of homeowners with average water useage (My family typically use 100 - 120 GPD), but your high useage may suggest consideration of a twin system.

    You aren't including irrigation in your useage, are you? Hose bibs and sprinklers should be split off before the softener. Check your wintertime water bill . . .
    Lifespeed

  13. #13
    DIY Junior Member Hugh Hempel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    The Fleck 7000SXT has 1-1/4" internal ports, I believe, and is quite affordable and works very well. But it is a single tank system. Single tank systems are adequate for the vast majority of homeowners with average water useage (My family typically use 100 - 120 GPD), but your high useage may suggest consideration of a twin system.

    You aren't including irrigation in your useage, are you? Hose bibs and sprinklers should be split off before the softener. Check your wintertime water bill . . .
    The numbers provided are INSIDE use only. My irrigation use is 10x (big property).

    I tend to agree with the idea of looking at the 7000sxt. Since my CUFT requirements are in the 2.0 range, I am not sure that the twins are mandatory and believe that the flow requirements might trump the efficiencies of a twin. Geez, I really wish that the twin valves were larger!

    I will wait for a response from DittoHead on alternatives.

  14. #14
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Add up your Service Flow Rate requirements carefully. Is it occasionally possible you'll have three showers going at once, plus the washing machine, dishwasher, a faucet and a toilet? That could be 16 - 18 GPM. Obviously you don't want to size for everything turned on at once, but a reasonable maximum.
    Lifespeed

  15. #15
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Hempel View Post
    . . . and believe that the flow requirements might trump the efficiencies of a twin. Geez, I really wish that the twin valves were larger!
    I also prefer not reducing pipe sizes anywhere. It can be argued the short length of the smaller softener valve and distributor tube is not that detrimental, but I went with the 7000SXT for my 1" plumbing anyway vs. the 3/4" Fleck 5600.
    Lifespeed

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