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Thread: Holy Cow! Now that Prices have changed, Which Way Should I Proceed?

  1. #16
    Master Plumber Caduceus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
    Are we going to have a pissing contest ?

    If so I would like to get in on it.

    I still have good Pressure, Distance and Endurance.


    Can I play too ? Or should I just place my bets ?
    It's not a contest yet, Don, but I do believe there is an odor of piss where territories have been marked and having somebody new in the area is being met with aggression. I think that my first post was fair and only showed bias in favor of safety, while admitting that it is an approved method by government, just that smaller entities that have a closer look at the product are approaching it with skeptical eyes as well as myself.
    jadnashua replied without a clear understanding of what I posted and discredited a basic concern that has been recognized for over a century in the plumbing industry and is tried and true.
    Dana's response was riddled with sarcasm and again pointed towards my opinion as if it was down-right retarded.
    It seems like what started as a potential open forum for intelligent discussion and a better understanding of how plumbing products can impact our lives in a positive or negative way, has again turned into an episode of "Let's shoot some holes in what Caduceus says." Just because I'm new to the forum doesn't mean that I'm new to the planet. I have years of experience and education that could actually be useful to somebody if it were given a chance.

  2. #17
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    It seems like what started as a potential open forum for intelligent discussion and a better understanding of how plumbing products can impact our lives in a positive or negative way, has again turned into an episode of "Let's shoot some holes in what Caduceus says."
    Well............Everyone has a right to state their viewpoint here. Even if you don't agree with it. On job sites, I was less concerned with comments about my layouts, "Does that even meet code?" and more about getting in fights with framers holding an axe in their hands.
    I had to bluff my way though guys saying they were going to smash my face, cut my pipes out of walls and fist fighting in general.
    I even had plumbing inspectors looking at their code books to see why I was plumbing the way I do.

    Because I could.

    I wasn't trying to change the world, I was just doing what worked best for me. If the guy plumbing next door was using way too much pipe and fittings, so what?
    I was going to beat him by three hours and head back to the barn. It wasn't going to take me all day to do an all day job.

    I'm guessing an "only" child?
    I had five brothers and two sisters growing up. My older brother liked teasing so much, that he's now in Washington DC doing it on a bigger scale. His targets are bigger now.

    I enjoy your input, but if you're looking for someone to fight these silly battles about who is right, well............that's a battle that should have been figured out by Junior High.
    By the time you hit High School, you should have gotten enough self esteem that you didn't worry about name calling, or respect. You let your work do your talking.
    It may help if you develop a sense of humor about this. For many of the guys here, it's partly entertainment. Sort of like hanging with other tradesmen after work talking shop. Let's not start a bar brawl over something you can't agree on. At the end of the day, Who cares?
    You're going to do it your way, and they will do it theirs. Don't lose sleep over it. Have a beer on me.
    Last edited by Terry; 11-05-2013 at 12:02 PM.

  3. #18
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Default I got good pressure and can piss a strong stream too...................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If those things work, then they work...

    I just dont think much of the whole thing...

    Now if you were to wrap that coil around the metal flu pipe
    comming off the water heater and off the furnace I bet the pay
    back would be much faster...and it would probablw would capture a
    lot of hot , hot heat. Maybe it would even trip the t+p valve if you got the coil too hot...!!

    now being on the flu pipe instead of the sewage pipe it would seem
    that there would be a far less chance of cross contanimation....

    unless you had good pressure and could piss up that high .....like I can.......

  4. #19
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    Of course, if you were able to suck enough heat out of the flue gases of a hot water heater you then run into flue-condensation issues. I'm sure it's been tried in more than one hippie-engineering household, with mixed but not very impressive results.

    With the stack-wrap approach the heat recovery is only sipping from the 20% of the source fuel heat that's going up the flue, and it'll very little of that heat out without adding a lot more complexity to the flue gas side. Condensing flue stack heat exchanger economizers for hydronic heating systems have been around for awhile, but I've yet to see it applied to a potable water system. With the simple potable wrap on flue pipe here isn't sufficient turbulence on the gas side to really make it happen- the main reason the gravity film liquid heat exchangers can achieve decent efficiency is that the surface tension of the greywater in drain side keeps it clinging to the side of the drain pipe rather than falling down the middle suspended in air. In a flue most of the heat is in the higher velocity higher temp gases at the center of the flue, not the boundary layers near the pipe walls. It's possible to improve that with turbulence-generating vanes, etc. but that's a whole 'nuther engineering problem.

  5. #20
    Master Plumber Caduceus's Avatar
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    When you say "the main reason the gravity film liquid heat exchangers can achieve decent efficiency is that the surface tension of the greywater in drain side keeps it clinging to the side of the drain pipe rather than falling down the middle suspended in air." what does that mean? How does water stay on the sides of the pipes when it falls instead of falling down the middle?

  6. #21
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Fluid dynamics is a complex science, but the fluid does tend to stick to the sides of the pipe.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  7. #22
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Dana,
    I've keeping track of the heat reclaim pipe you show. I have a location in my home, where I could replace a 3" stack and place my tankless water heater by it. The tankless unit vents with PVC, so condensation would be taken care of. And the washer would be nearby for draining the condensation. It means a little remodel, but I'm adding a bathroom on the first floor in that location anyway.

    Years ago, maybe decades ago, I was installing heat exchangers for commerical use. I love the idea of preconditioning and not wasting that energy that would normally just find it's way outside without kicking in a second use of the first earned energy.
    In the mid 80's I was building passive solar homes with a Southern exposure. Those worked pretty well too.

    And yes, water does cling to the outside of the pipe. That's one reason when we dump sink waste into a floor sink, we cut the end of the pipe like a baloney, at an angle. That way the water doesn't spin around and miss the drain.

    Last edited by Terry; 11-06-2013 at 09:23 AM.

  8. #23
    Master Plumber Caduceus's Avatar
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    Do you cut the baloney on the horizontal or the vertical part of the pipe? And if on the vertical, then where do you point the baloney side? Towards the middle of the floor drain or towards the inside wall of the pipe? This sticking and clinging, is it to the outside or inside of the pipe?

  9. #24
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    I'm either at a 45 or at vertical.
    With a 45, the long side is down. On the vertical, I tend to keep the open side over the center of the drain, and the long side near the outer edge.
    That doesn't mean I'm doing it right though. I only know that if I don't cut in the angle, the water spins off the end. If I cut in an angle, it tends to follow the pipe to the the end, and falls off the pipe there. Much cleaner. That's the sort of thing that you hear from someone, and hope that you remember for the time when you may need to do it.
    It enables me to get the waste water to the floor sink, and maintain an air gap.
    Last edited by Terry; 11-05-2013 at 06:28 PM.

  10. #25
    Master Plumber Caduceus's Avatar
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    Okay, got it. I was just trying to determine which one of the fundamental forces was at work inside the pipes. The 'sticking' and 'clinging' threw me off for a minute but I guess it's kinda like gravity affecting the water travelling vertically and when in free fall the rotational influence of the earth in concert with gravity results in an expanding circular pattern until it reaches the wall where the dilation cannot continue. Of course this is only if the incoming volume of water doesn't exceed the rated flow capacity of the pipe. And then by cutting an angle at the end of the pipe, there is a subtle abridgement of the gyre reducing the splash. Sorry for any confusion. Fluid dynamics get me all goofy. I guess that got cleared up with out getting messy.

    See, Terry...I DO have a sense of humor.

  11. #26
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    That explanation had me going for a while

  12. #27
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Cool you are cutting the balony real thin here....

    you know , I have noticed when I take a piss, the stream sort of spins out the end of my pecker and spins in a counter clock wise
    direction down into the toilet bowl.....

    is that the theory that Dana is talking about that the water seems to cling
    to the side of the pipes as it passes through...does it spin down the pipe ??

    Depending on your age the psi that you are pushing urine out with could differ dramatically... I sitll got good pressure

    Now with a normal sewer pipe I dont think there is much pressure and I wonder how much heat transferrence actually happens....and how hot is the water going through the pipe???


    now, if I lived south of the equator would it be spinning it out of my pecker
    in a counter clock wise direction and should that be factored into the equation??

    Dana I think you should facator these things in to your heat transfer equation.....

    also if you put your hand on the flue pipe,
    it will most likely come close to burning you..... that is where I would rather wrap the copper coil..... that is probably close to 195 degrees...

    next time you take a piss , try passing your hand through your stream and you should get a feel for the heat...
    but it will only be around 98.6...luke warm at best......and it would drop dramatically once it gets into the toilet...

    that is some serious heat loss.....

    Dana , just try it and see


    here is a study that some psysicists did on
    this subject
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24820279



  13. #28
    In the trades Dana's Avatar
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    I'll accept the measured performance of the engineers who design & test stuff above anybody's armchair theory. I accept Terry's (and other's) less rigorous field test measurements too.

    Most of the water in vertical drains is NOT in free-fall, but rather on the surface of the pipe, which is why these things work at all. The measured heat exchange efficiency of gravity film heat exchangers is well established, no equations necessary, but if you want some of the details of how droplets are clingy whereas bubbles are bouncy, that is well known too. :-)

    For the non-numerical perspective, watch what happens to rain-drops as they hit a vertical window at an oblique angle, and how little of the water bounces off compared to what sticks (and that's at a much higher verital velocity than you would find in a drain). It doesn't take a high lateral velocity to go from one edge of a 4" drain pipe to hit the other side and stick to it, even even a 2' drop. The surface tension of the liquid causes it to spread out over the surface of the drain pipe as it runs down, increasing the heat transfer area.

    High temperatures on low thermal mass surfaces like single-wall flue pipes is not a measure of heat transfer efficiency, only a measure of how poorly that heat is re-transfered to the proximate air on the exterior of the flue pipe. Give it a shot if you like- when you take the flue heat exchanger to it's logical limit you will have re-invented the condensing water heater! :-)

    I fully accept that not everyone is comfortable with having a potable wrap in contact with the drain, but I also accept that as-built these do not constitute a code violation in most places. The double walled character and the tightness of the wrap (=no mechanical vibe & wear) are probably the differentiating factor that gives the assembly a pass, where potable piping field-assembled in contact with drains would be a violation. Without the minutes of the presiding/deciding body to refer to we can only speculate. But from one vendors' website:

    "Code Compliance

    DWHR double-walled heat exchangers meet the Uniform Plumbing Code, Section 603.3.4; 1995 CABO (Council of American Building Officials) One and Two Family Dwelling Code, Section 3402.3.1; 1998 ICC (International Code Council) One and Two Family Dwelling Code, Section 3402.4.2.1; and the 2000 and 2003 ICC International Residential Code, Section P2902.4.2 - Heat Exchangers.
    "

    If the lack of an ASTM B88 stripe on the brazed manifold on Renewability's heat exchanger design is an issue in your jurisdiction, there are multiple vendors of units that don't have that problem, and there are other vendors who also offer direct from manufacturer website sales shippable to US locations, if there isn't a US retailer or distributor to work with eg:

    http://ecoinnovation.ca/thermodrainpurchase/

    Natural Resources Canada maintains a third-party tested performance list here.

    There is another US manufacturer that isn't third-party tested & listed on NRCAN program (probably due to their ongoing allegations of patent infringment by Canadian vendors), but their stuff works too:

    http://www.gfxtechnology.com/


    The Canadians tried and failed to measure the heat recovery of room-temp and tepid water drains using these things, but failed. The delta-Ts are too small, and even using the theoretical model the result would be smaller than the measurement error for unbalance high drain-gpm not exactly simultaneous slow-potable flows like toilet flushes. (Heat exchange efficiency falls with higher flow rates & unbalanced flow.)

  14. #29
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    There is no way I would even attempt to slog through those voluminous replies, but you can forget about finding a new heater which will match the connections to the old one after 17 years. The dimensions have changed so often that even a 8 year old heater would be different from a new one.
    Licensed residential and commercial plumber

  15. #30
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    I'll accept the measured performance of the engineers who design & test stuff above anybody's armchair theory. I accept Terry's (and other's) less rigorous field test measurements too.


    I fully accept that not everyone is comfortable with having a potable wrap in contact with the drain, but I also accept that as-built these do not constitute a code violation in most places. The double walled character and the tightness of the wrap (=no mechanical vibe & wear) are probably the differentiating factor that gives the assembly a pass, where potable piping field-assembled in contact with drains would be a violation. Without the minutes of the presiding/deciding body to refer to we can only speculate. But from one vendors' website:


    http://ecoinnovation.ca/thermodrainpurchase/

    Natural Resources Canada maintains a third-party tested performance list here.


    http://www.gfxtechnology.com/


    The Canadians tried and failed to measure the heat recovery of room-temp and tepid water drains using these things, but failed. The delta-Ts are too small, and even using the theoretical model the result would be smaller than the measurement error for unbalance high drain-gpm not exactly simultaneous slow-potable flows like toilet flushes. (Heat exchange efficiency falls with higher flow rates & unbalanced flow.)


    Dana , tha tis a lot of information...
    I think that the canadians would rather sit back and drink a Labats beer than
    waste their time trying to capture the Delta t of one of these devices because
    it is nominal... they probably finally just gave up because it was so small a figure
    to try to capture.....

    I honestly think that its a good idea if you make your own out of 1/2 soft copper which would work ok anything smaller would probably restrict the pipe flow..... but these things are in
    the same league with Tankless water heaters.... a lot of mis-leading information , smoke and mirrors...

    That is why the canadians threw in the towell...

    they are politely saying that its a joke....


    now speaking of flow, did you try that piss test, on your hand last night??
    you sould be able to measure the Delta T while it was passing over your hand.
    with a thermometer.....

    I think that this data could be revelant......leave no stone un-turned.

    Here is a digital thermometer that you could use to test your flow.... just be sure to clean it off before sticking it in the Thanks Giving turkey







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