FIBEROCK Tile Backerboard vs HardieBacker Cement Board

[piezomot]

Question to an expert- what is the difference between:

FIBEROCK Tile Backerboard:

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/fibe...-x-5-ft/911233

and

HardieBacker Cement Board:

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/hard...3x5x042/996568

When it comes for tiles installation.

I have heard that FIBEROCK Tile Backerboard would not require any insulation material behind it as it moisture resistant already. Plus it will not crack during installation.

Also how do I finish joints? The same way for HardieBacker Cement Board?

[piezomot]

I have heard that FIBEROCK Tile Backerboard would not require any insulation material behind it as it moisture resistant already. Plus it will not crack during installation.

[jadnashua]

They both can wick some moisture, neither is degraded if it does get wet, but neither is truly waterproof and you should have a vapor barrier behind it UNLESS you use a waterproofing layer on top of it. If you screw too close to an edge, you can damage either. I tend to use Hardibacker. Either works. It was funny in the video, when grouting, what the guy is doing verses what they say you should do are not the same! You will pull some grout out of the joints if you do not go diagonally and he was rubbing at 90-degrees. Their instructions on setting and measuring work okay IF the tile has little built-in spacers and are designed to be butted - the spacers leave enough room for the grout. Many tile does not have those built-in spacers, and the spacing can vary all over the place depending on your personal preference and the tile selected, so the measuring process could be way off.

[johnfrwhipple]

Jim i thought you use drywall. Now it's hardibacker? Really? Did you read your posts from the other day?

I looked at the Fiberrock board a long time back. Looks like a cheap version of Green eBoard. The sample I was shown was courser in textured to Green EBoard and off white in colour almost light brown.

Between the two I would use the Hardie Backer.

[jadnashua]

Jim i thought you use drywall. Now it's hardibacker? Really? Did you read your posts from the other day?

Stop being such a jerk...I've NEVER advocated drywall anywhere in a wet area unless following Schluter's approved methods...this is not one and you know it!

[Justadrip]

Don't worry Jim.... Whipple is just being Whipple. This is one of the last remaining forums he hasn't been booted from. He will tow the line.

[jadziedzic]

You know, John, I'm very impressed by your knowledge of products & technology related to the tile business. I think you're a dedicated individual who really tries to do his best, and your work I've seen appears to be top-notch. Unfortunately, the one aspect of you that people will most remember is that your actions and behavior on 'net forums is, simply put, immature when it comes to your ongoing feud with Schluter and their certifications regarding use of drywall under Kerdi.

On one hand you are rightly telling people that flood testing showers is mandated by the plumbing code, but at the same time you have an ongoing problem with the concept of product certification that complies with a given code.

Is using drywall under Kerdi a good idea? My *personal opinion* jives with yours - it's a stupid idea. Is it permitted by code? Yes, where Schluter has obtained the necessary certifications. Is it acceptable to your local Authority Having Jurisdiction? Ultimately that's the person who has the final say.

Please, give it a rest.

[jadnashua]

FWIW, Schluter does say to flood test the shower in their instructions...

[johnfrwhipple]

One day soon Schluter will stop recommending drywall in their shower specifications and that day hopefully is right around the corner.

Until such time I'll keep poking fun at the weekend warriors and tile hacks that follow this advice.

Our man Jim here is personally responsible for spreading such horrible advice to thousands and thousands of people. An armchair renovator who never was in the bathroom renovation business.

Me however - I get paid to build showers. Same job I had a year ago. Same job I had five years ago. Same job I had ten years ago.

I could care less that Schluter recommends drywall - it's a bad call. I could care less who thinks it's childish.

WHo here wonders if drywall is allowed in the Germany Kerdi installations? I do.

How many government projects are built with drywall in the showers?

Why does Schluter recommend drywall so hard via their tech lines?

Drywall is reserved for the foolish.

Schluter mentions flood tests in the "Other" section - a token foot note. Flood test are mandatory. Look it up.

Most of the tile information online or "How To" information is controlled by a few people. Most tile men do not want their methods questioned. Most contractors and such not happy when a client asks for a code required flood test.

Help ful advice should be just that helpful.

It's one thing to pretend to build showers online. It's another building them - have your work tested by the city. Inspected and signed off on.

I got a nice fat roll of Kerdi DS at home. European Kerdi. I'll install the whole role and show you boys how Kerdi is meant to be installed.

That would be over Concrete Board.

I'll also show you flood tests.

The big difference in these debates is that like I said before - "I do this for a living" and Jim does not.

Jim reads online facts and I read site plans.

Jim goes to workshops and I go to work.

Right now I have a Kerdi Line drain sitting outside on a ledge. I'm trying to make it rust. I scratched it. Buffed out one side and left it outside for the past few days. I'm testing the product. I've found that some linear drains rust! Now, how can that be? Are they all not made from stainless steel?

So I could believe all my prior suppliers or I could put matters into my own hands.

So far two suppliers drains have rusted out on the ledge. FYI the Kerdi Line is looking pretty good.

Want to know which two? JW

[DougB]

I think it's pretty obvious: A shower / bath is a key component to a modern home. The home owner has invested time / money / energy / into the project. It's a heavy, dirty, job. A lot of planning, problem solving go into each job. The cost and application of the materials is significant. The expected outcome is to last 40 - 50 years.

The difference in the cost of cement board - that is 100% water resistant - vs dry wall is so insignificant that there is absolutely no reason to risk - even a small failure of the membrane.

Who knows - a faucet stem or a joint could leak slightly in the wall - once that drywall is wet - it's done.

[johnfrwhipple]

I think it's pretty obvious: A shower / bath is a key component to a modern home. The home owner has invested time / money / energy / into the project. It's a heavy, dirty, job. A lot of planning, problem solving go into each job. The cost and application of the materials is significant. The expected outcome is to last 40 - 50 years.

The difference in the cost of cement board - that is 100% water resistant - vs dry wall is so insignificant that there is absolutely no reason to risk - even a small failure of the membrane.

Who knows - a faucet stem or a joint could leak slightly in the wall - once that drywall is wet - it's done.

Thank you Doug!

You might get warm air condensing on the back side because the home is air conditioned.

You could have water lines dripping because they are sweating.

Perhaps a home settled or some studs twisted - two very common things.

So many "What If's" it's embarrassing how much Jim and Schluter promote the use of drywall. I think Jim is stuck in a corner on this topic. If I remember correctly he built his and his mother's shower this way.

People are lazy most times. Everyone looking for the path of least resistance.

Using cement board means using special screws.

Using cement board means adding in extra blocking.

Using cement board is a little heavier.

In the TTMAC specification guidelines (For Steam Showers) it recommends one backer board. It's not drywall. Not Green Board. Not Denshield. It's Concrete Board.

Even hear not all concrete board is created equal - so the manufacture also needs to recommend it can be used in a steam shower.

Now if 20 people call Schluter today and ask what should they use for a backer board - I bet over half of them are told to "Just use drywall".

One of the tech supports in Canada told me last year I could use it for a steam shower even. I think this is what the "Call Center" tech supports are trained to say.

If anyone does not believe me - call them?

JW

[jadnashua]

You could extend the concern to any home's structure by saying what if they didn't install the windows, doors, or roof properly. If that happens, you'll have damage - damage that may stay hidden until it becomes severe. In a conventional shower, the walls are expected to get wet and you need something that won't be damaged when it happens. CBU is the primary material used since there aren't many people left that are willing to pay for or install a good mudded wall. In a home, the internal walls are expected to remain dry because the windows, doors, and roof are expected to be installed properly - you don't put cbu on the walls for that 'what if' they leak and some places will see much more severe conditions than in a shower - hurricane force winds, torrential rainstorms, really nasty water blowing sideways at high velocities. But, what if you have a leak in your kitchen sink...do you install cbu on the wall there? What about the vanity sink, or around the washing machine? No...not that you couldn't but millions of homes in the USA and elsewhere deem it too small of a risk to be worthwhile. You don't expect your plumbing to leak in the foreseeable future. The vast majority of the time when it does, it doesn't do it from stems, it leaks out the tub spout or showerhead (few use a 'stem' any more, either, it's all cartridges). When properly installed, you don't expect your Kerdi membrane to leak. So, the risk factor, for most people, John excepted, is small, and you have a choice...the quicker, easier, less expensive, fewer joints material, or spend money on something that will take longer, cost more, and not provide a benefit? If it is deemed a benefit to you, go for it. I have confidence in the material, the manufacturer, and my ability to 'do it right the first time'. Feel free to add as many extra layers of protection as you see fit.

[johnfrwhipple]

Jim you go on and on about this subject.

In the past I've have asked you if you own stock and you said you don't.

You do not work for Schluter.

Why push drywall so hard? Clearly our homes are built poorly in todays age of speed and cost cutting. In the wettest place on the Earth you not only promote it you hammer the point home as to why it's OK.

People read your junk advise (that of Schluter's) and perhaps install drywall over a rubber liner and then Kerdi it. Water gets sucked up the back of the drywall.

maybe people in California get a Hot Mop. Read that drywall is OK and then Kerdi over top of that? Wrong again.

A typical shower needs no extra Kerdi to pass inspection.

The Kerdi is extra protection and I think a great idea - but only after you have built a proper shower.

Your promotion is to narrow. You need to work with some more products. You need to stop drinking all that "Orange kook-aid".

Kerdi is great. I have a roll of Kerdi DS in my home. About 8 tubes of Kerdi Fix. A roll of Ditra Drain. some Ditra. A scrap of Ditra XL. A kerdi Line drain on my window ledge. Two Kerdi drains. A Kerdi install DVD. Their manuals. And on and on.

I would never use drywall in a shower! It's insane.

Rubber liner, Poly, cement board, tape the seams. Done. Code. Field tested and proven for decades.

Add Kerdi over the walls - Even better.

Swap out the rubber liner for a full Kerdi install - better still.

Swap out cement board for drywall - Crazy.

JW

[jadnashua]

You're right in that a properly built shower is waterproof (or totally water resistant anyway) before the tile are installed - and, that's the key - before the tile are installed. And, a properly built Kerdi shower is both waterproof AND for practical purposes, vapor proof unless you go to extra measures needed for a steam shower - all, before the tile are installed. Personally, I think hotmop is a lousy way to build a shower...I think it's the availability of cheap labor and tradition that it's still around. If you then try to use Kerdi on it, that's even dumber unless you tear out the drain and install a proper Kerdi one - then ignore that it's there at all. When building a shower, it's dumb to mix systems and barriers on both sides of panels is also dumb as it traps moisture, if it ever got there.

[DougB]

Residential Building Codes:

Section 2509.2 Base for tile.

Cement, fiber-cement or glass mat gypsum backers in compliance with ASTM C 1178, C 1288 or C 1325 and installed in accordance with manufacturer recommendations shall be used as a base for wall tile in tub and shower areas and wall and ceiling panels in shower areas.

2509.3 Limitations.

Water-resistant gypsum backing board shall not be used in the following locations:

---> 2. Where there will be direct exposure to water or in areas subject to continuous high humidity.

From a USG rep

Residential Building Code everywhere requires no white gypsum wall board or green board - but rather a tile backer board made specifically for that purpose. Schluter does have a evaluation report that you can copy and take to the local building official and see if they accept it or not - then get their approval in writing before hanging your board and membrane.

Most folks just use a traditional backer board and then the waterproof membrane because then there is absolutely no question that you meet code AND have a waterproof installation.


http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/ic...-P-2006-000019