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Thread: Just a few water softener questions...

  1. #16
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    I was a dealer for Nelsen for many years and at one time before Watts bought them, for Alamo Water. I can't say I ever saw anything about a minimum gpm size for residential softeners. And for many years I sold many 1.5 - 4 cuft softeners with no customer complaints. That is because they were sized and programmed to regenerate every 8-10 days.

    How about you show us the data instead of just making the claim?

    In another thread about sizing you say there usually is no problem with the larger size and that it is the right size for the peak demand requirement of the house and that if the peak demand is exceeded, the customer gets hard water through the softener. Now here you don't mention that and that makes your advice questionable at best.
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  2. #17
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Sigh, if I must. Here is a page from Watts catalog. I think this states it fairly clearly. Anything else I can help you with?

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  3. #18
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Here is another one with the Clack info. Just like intermittent higher flows have little affect on a systems performance in residential applications, intermittent low flows have little affect as well. These numbers should be considered for very large systems. This is one reason why twin alternating systems tend to be preferred over very large tanks in residential applications.
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  4. #19
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    That info doesn't come from Fleck or Clack, it comes from Watts.

    And I see abbreviations for approximate and recommended but...

    I also know any web site or 'manufacturer' can say anything they want to about their equipment. I know that Nelsen doesn't claim the same as you stated they do and, that most all other softener 'manufacturers' don't either. Plus I sold what you are calling oversized softeners for many years without channeling problems.

    Then after all this you say: "intermittent higher flows have little affect on a systems performance in residential applications, intermittent low flows have little affect as well"....

    Now if you insist on continuing your misinformation line, show us a resin manufacturer that supports your and the Watts recommended low gpm flow claim and include your claim that channeling isn't prevented by the length of time between regenerations.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 03-14-2013 at 08:42 AM.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #20
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I believe the confusion with flow rates either low or excessive is in the word intermittent which of course means it don't happen regulary in which case it dont make no difference. Or, you just feel like ball busting
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  6. #21
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    . . . Or, you just feel like ball busting
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Lifespeed

  7. #22
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Reminds me of an episode of "My Name is Earl". Randy claims he would be great on the debate team because he can disagree with anything anyone else says.

    And yes, Nelsen does say the same thing, please do your research. Nelsen doesnt bother with residential flow recommendations, they assume most professionals understand the practical limits of equipment sizing and application. Their entire commercial line has recommended minimum and maximum flows. You ask for proof from Watts or Nelsen, I show you proof, the proof is wrong, sigh.

    A 4 cu. ft. system should work fine but will be outside of the engineering specifications for many residential applications. A properly sized twin alternating system would be a better fit. Not sure why this has turned into a multi-page discussion again.

  8. #23
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    I believe the confusion with flow rates either low or excessive is in the word intermittent which of course means it don't happen regulary in which case it dont make no difference. Or, you just feel like ball busting
    I don't see any confusion or ball busting on my part, just ditto and lifespeed's, because I have never had a customer suffer from too low flow or channeling problems.

    And I see you saying that you haven't either but, now ditto says downflow doesn't have channeling and that channeling isn't the problem blah blah blah... So why does he insist that low flow is a problem, in you opinion of course?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #24
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    And yes, Nelsen doesnt bother with residential flow recommendations, .... Their entire commercial line has recommended minimum and maximum flows.

    A 4 cu. ft. system should work fine but will be outside of the engineering specifications for many residential applications.
    Damn, you finally got it right! Nelsen does not have minimum flow rates for residential but do for their commercial softeners.

    And a 4.0 cuft in residential works fine.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #25
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Lol, you still dont grasp the concept. Maybe I can help.

    1" main line, 10 people in the house, 90 grains hardness, customer wants to maintain decent efficiency and regenerate approximatley every 6-7 days at 6 pounds of salt per cu. ft.

    10 people x 60 GPD x 90 gpg x 6 days between regeenrations =324,000 grains system needed for this application. So you would have no problem installing a 15+ cu. ft. single tank system? According to the logic of Gary, a 30" diameter tank will have no problem with residential flows. The recommended folw rates are just that, recommended. They are design parameters that need to be considered. They are "recommendations", not mandates. Why is it a bad idea to recommend a more appropriate design for an application? A 4 cu. ft. system should work ok. Is it ideal? Is it the best choice? No, but it may be slighly cheaper than a proper twin alternating system.

    Stop looking and digging for conflict where it does not exist.

  11. #26
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I don't see any confusion or ball busting on my part, just ditto and lifespeed's, because I have never had a customer suffer from too low flow or channeling problems.

    And I see you saying that you haven't either but, now ditto says downflow doesn't have channeling and that channeling isn't the problem blah blah blah... So why does he insist that low flow is a problem, in you opinion of course?
    I don't see where he did say low flow was a problem if its intermittent.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  12. #27
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    Lol, you still dont grasp the concept. Maybe I can help.

    1" main line, 10 people in the house, 90 grains hardness, customer wants to maintain decent efficiency and regenerate approximatley every 6-7 days at 6 pounds of salt per cu. ft.

    10 people x 60 GPD x 90 gpg x 6 days between regeenrations =324,000 grains system needed for this application.

    So you would have no problem installing a 15+ cu. ft. single tank system?

    A 4 cu. ft. system should work ok.
    Yep, all you've got left is the ability to make up an outrageous and untrue claim about me.

    I agree with your bottom line. In this case a 4.0 would work just fine.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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