Do I need a vapor barrier?

[Hockeylucky]

Hello, I'm remodeling my shower in Southern California and I'm planing to make a slopped mortar bed for my shower pan and tile all the way up to the ceiling. Our door will be a steam shower door and I'm debating on what to use to waterproof the whole thing (kerdi or mapelastic hpg) technically I'm building a steam shower enclosure without a steam generator and the question here is: would hot water from my shower head produce enough steam inside the enclosure to need a vapor barrier? Or 3 or 4 coats of mapelastic hpg will be enough from floor to ceiling.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[jadnashua]

There are a bunch of ways to build a long-lasting, well performing shower. If you use something like Kerdi, you need to use their drain. A conventional showerpan needs a waterproof liner and a setting bed of mortar on top of the preslope. If you plan long, hot, steamy showers, you might want to consider building it to steam shower specifications and a surface membrane will help prevent that high vapor pressure from penetrating and making things take much longer to dry out, although the relative humidity in Anaheim is fairly low, if I remember, most of the year. ALL showers require a vapor barrier either topically applied, or behind the cbu on the walls (not both!).

There are so many little details, it's hard to cover all of them in a situation like this on a forum. MIss one or more, and the 'system' may not perform well.

[johnfrwhipple]

Hello, I'm remodeling my shower in Southern California and I'm planing to make a slopped mortar bed for my shower pan and tile all the way up to the ceiling. Our door will be a steam shower door and I'm debating on what to use to waterproof the whole thing (kerdi or mapelastic hpg) technically I'm building a steam shower enclosure without a steam generator and the question here is: would hot water from my shower head produce enough steam inside the enclosure to need a vapor barrier? Or 3 or 4 coats of mapelastic hpg will be enough from floor to ceiling.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

HPG is not rated for steam showers. HPG is a one coat product and not a multiple coat product. Red Guard is rated at 44 mil thick or 4-5 coats. You will need vapour barrier behind your cement board and lapped over your liner. Hydro Ban is rated at 44 mil thick or 3-4 coats. You will need vapour barrier like Red Guard. Your KErdi option is better. Kerdi DS better still. And Noble Seal TS the best of the best.

The only backer board recommended for all these installations is concrete board. You could also screed out your walls if prepared properly and allowed to cure before coating.

I just wrapped up my steam shower presentation to a room full of builders, architects and designers.

We discussed lighting, tile, vapour, steam shower placement and on and on.

Have you selected your tile and your lighting? These need to be the first steps. Check out this Ideabook on Houzz to help you narrow the choices down...


Link: http://www.houzz.com/ideabooks/35234...a-Steam-Shower

Selecting tile and a tile layout will help you plan everything from stud placement to ceiling framing.

Make sure you have 16" centers for the wall studs.

12" centers for the ceiling studs.

Blocking on all edges (3'x5') sheets of cement board.

Why not use a Hot Mop on the floor? Maybe an ACO linear drain over top of the hot mop. Then screed out your walls and Kerdi them?

Pretty bullet proof and I believe most of your tradesmen down South like this approach!

JW

[Hockeylucky]

Thank you guys for your response. John I've seen pictures of your work and read the articles on houzz. You really do amazing work!

I've gotten some quotes for a hotmop which seems to be the way to go here in California, but I've also read that hotmop becomes hard and brittle over the years and it leaks since its tar. Any comment on this?

I think I like the idea of the topical membrane (noble seal ts as John recomends) right on top of the mud bed that way the water will go straight to the drain. I'm planning to also use the noble seal ts on walls and ceiling? My shower will not be a steam shower, it will only have a steam shower glass door to keep the steam generated by the shower heads. I don't want to overkill it, but do want to protect the walls.

For the sloped mortar bed, is Portland cement and sand ok? Or is there anything else you recommend.

As far as the lighting, I'm planning to use shower rated lights and covers.

I plan to use porcelain tile on the walls. I'm open to any other suggestions.

I removed a shower tub and a closet to make a wall to wall shower 8'5"x4'. Two of these walls are exterior walls and I plan to install a couple of those pre-made niches, would this be ok?
I want to do it right so I'm open to your expert advice.

I'm also using the io digital system from moen any input on this?

[jadnashua]

In your climate, you might get away with niches on an exterior wall, but that means essentially no insulation there. Things can get hot or cold sitting in there! That wouldn't be a good idea many places, and might not be great there. While the premade niches are mostly made of plastic and foam, there isn't a lot of insulation in them.

[johnfrwhipple]

Thank you guys for your response. John I've seen pictures of your work and read the articles on houzz. You really do amazing work! Thank You.

I've gotten some quotes for a hotmop which seems to be the way to go here in California, but I've also read that hotmop becomes hard and brittle over the years and it leaks since its tar. Any comment on this? I've never heard that. I have Hot Mop on my exterior deck with a roofing system. You can not leave it exposed or treat it as a wear surface. Under 2" of mortar it is not going anywhere.

I think I like the idea of the topical membrane (noble seal ts as John recomends) right on top of the mud bed that way the water will go straight to the drain. I'm planning to also use the noble seal ts on walls and ceiling? My shower will not be a steam shower, it will only have a steam shower glass door to keep the steam generated by the shower heads. I don't want to overkill it, but do want to protect the walls. Using Noble Seal TS it is not possible BUT to over kill it. You might add a steamer on day??? If you go this route you would still have that option. Maybe even rough in a steam line but leave it capped in the wall for a later date with more funds! Noble Seal TS is 40mil thick. Noble also makes a product called Wall Seal which you might find easier using in your niches and ceiling. Use the Noble Seal TS or Noble SIS if you might plan on making it a steam shower one day.

For the sloped mortar bed, is Portland cement and sand ok? Or is there anything else you recommend. Depends on the tile and grout colour. Try working with a white or light grey grout. If you want a Mocha-Cino-Burnt-Bronze colour or Black you are best to work with premium setting materials. You might for example do a hot mop, Install your mud bed. Give it a coupe weeks to cure and then cover the entire floor with Noble Seal TS. Maybe Hydro Ban. Maybe Ardex 8+9. Are you going to install a linear drain over top of the hot mop rough in? It's easy.

As far as the lighting, I'm planning to use shower rated lights and covers. Any colour?

I plan to use porcelain tile on the walls. I'm open to any other suggestions. Porcelain Rocks. Easy. Durable.

I removed a shower tub and a closet to make a wall to wall shower 8'5"x4'. Two of these walls are exterior walls and I plan to install a couple of those pre-made niches, would this be ok?
I want to do it right so I'm open to your expert advice. Niches on exterior walls is dicey. We do do it but you can get busted by the inspectors for failing to have proper insulation levels there. If your installing a premade niche consider a small amount of insallation on the back side so it stays less cold.

I'm also using the io digital system from moen any input on this? Never worked with it before. Sounds cool. I bet the plumbers here have seen it. Did you check with Terry or Jamie? I'm sure they have installed one by now.

JW

[Hockeylucky]

Thanks again for your response.

Is the noble wall seal vapor proof?
I like the idea of running a line for future steam use, so I think I'll do that.

Do I need to add noble ts on top of my hot mop and mortar bed? Wouldn't this create a sandwich?
Or do I need the noble to vapor proof the floor as well?

Yesterday I went shopping for a Aco quartz plus drain (35") which I'm going to install after the hot mop passes the 72 hour water test (what is the proper way of doing this)? I also bought a quick pitch system so I could screed down the proper slope towards the drain.

I'm going to be centering the aco drain and splitting the difference of 2 1/2" on the width of the shower (40") since the drain is 35". Any suggestions on how to slope this?

I currently have one white recessed light centered on the 8' shower project. I plan to add 2 more color changing LED's on a separate switch that way we can control when we want to have colorful showers.

I'm going to install the pre-made niches on my exterior wall and try to stuff as much insulation as possible back there.

[johnfrwhipple]

Is the noble wall seal vapor proof?

Yes - Noble Seal TS has a perm rating of 0.05.

I like the idea of running a line for future steam use, so I think I'll do that.

Take some time and decide on a steam unit. Most use a 1/2" copper pipe but some require 3/4". Check out the ThermaSol brand, by far my favourite. Email this guy for help picking which steamer Mike Straw <mike.straw@thermasol.com>

Do I need to add noble ts on top of my hot mop and mortar bed?

No the Hot Mop would be fine by itself. The Noble Seal TS would go on the walls and ceiling.

Nelson Wilner <nwilner@noblecompany.com> at Noble Company can put you in contact with the Noble rep in California. I'm sure they have a specific diagram for your state. Email him as well for orders. I believe in the US Noble ships for a flat rate of $5.00 on all their online orders.

Wouldn't this create a sandwich?

That is a debate we need hours to hash out! But not applicable for the floor.

Or do I need the noble to vapor proof the floor as well?

Not on the floor.


Yesterday I went shopping for a Aco quartz plus drain (35") which I'm going to install after the hot mop passes the 72 hour water test (what is the proper way of doing this)?

Your Hot Mop crew should set the test for you. Or your plumber. If your on your own use an inflatable test plug and place it inside the drain's waste pipe above the P-Trap. Inflate and then check your seal. If you want give me ring and I'll give you some more pointers. (604) 506 6792.

I also bought a quick pitch system so I could screed down the proper slope towards the drain.
This may or may not work well. Does your Hot Mop have a Pre-Slope? Please say YES.

I'm going to be centering the aco drain and splitting the difference of 2 1/2" on the width of the shower (40") since the drain is 35". Any suggestions on how to slope this?

You need me to work on a custom Idea Book for you. Call me.


I currently have one white recessed light centered on the 8' shower project. I plan to add 2 more color changing LED's on a separate switch that way we can control when we want to have colorful showers.

Check on how these lights are serviced. Sometimes the fancy ones are the hardest to get to. Will you have a lare rain head? These make great access panels in a pinch down the road.

I'm going to install the pre-made niches on my exterior wall and try to stuff as much insulation as possible back there.

Cross your fingers you don't get busted by the Insulation Police - they are everywhere here in Vancouver! LOL

[Hockeylucky]

John, thank you for providing your number to call you directly for questions and for extending your help to me. I currently have all kinds of stitches in my mouth due to an implant, so I can't really talk. However, If you like you can email me at my personal email for now; it's cleardzone@yahoo.com, unless you would like to provide yours and I'll be in contact with you.

The information that I'm getting from you is truly amazing. Just so you know I'm doing all of this myself. I have a general overall knowledge since I was a pipe fitter for 2 1/2 years. I tried to hire someone for my project, but the responses I get are that I don't need to do this or that so nothing even familiar to your recommendations, so I rather do it all myself and take it slow and do it right.

Thanks again and I'll talk to you soon.