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Thread: Advice appreciated on appropriate toilet

  1. #16
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Cool. Bottom line is that none of these are renowned for their great flushing ability. So it may be that your son's solid-waste visits can overwhelm them but might not require the Caroma trapway and would be good with the dual-flush Aquias. The 1-piece has a 1.75" trapway while the 2-piece is 2.125"
    Last edited by wjcandee; 01-31-2013 at 11:51 PM.

  2. #17
    DIY Junior Member JerryMR's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info. We're now leaning toward the Aquia 2-piece. Also, we realized since there's some lag time between doing the different bathrooms, we can get one Aquia and essentially "try before we buy" the other two toilets.

  3. #18
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMR View Post
    Thanks for the info. We're now leaning toward the Aquia 2-piece. Also, we realized since there's some lag time between doing the different bathrooms, we can get one Aquia and essentially "try before we buy" the other two toilets.
    Sounds like a plan. The one big difference between the Aquia bowl (dual-flush) and the other Toto bowls (Drake II, Ultramax II, etc.) is that the Aquia bowl is a washdown flush rather than a siphon-jet flush. In a washdown flush, all the water comes down on top of the water (and waste) that's already in the bowl, and pushes it through. In a siphon jet flush, whether it's GMax or Double-Cyclone, there is a hole in the bottom of the bowl that shoots water across and into the outflow hole and thereby sucks (siphons) what is in the bowl down the drain. You may get a little more oomph with a siphon-jet. However, the MAP ratings (amount of solid waste the toilet can evacuate) on the Aquia are still very good and the washdown flush by necessity has better bowl wash.

    Good luck and let us know how it goes!!

  4. #19
    DIY Junior Member JerryMR's Avatar
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    This is good info, wjcandee, although now I'm less certain about the Aquia

    I get the impression from things I've read that the Drake and Ultramax have a pseudo-dual-flush - is this correct? That is, you can hold the flusher for a long or short amount of time, and thereby cause an increased flush by holding it longer. If this is correct, is the minimum flush the rated amount of water for the toilet, and holding it longer uses more than 1.28 or 1.6 or whatever the particular toilet spec is? Does this hold for that 1.0G Drake II too?

  5. #20
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMR View Post
    This is good info, wjcandee, although now I'm less certain about the Aquia

    I get the impression from things I've read that the Drake and Ultramax have a pseudo-dual-flush - is this correct? That is, you can hold the flusher for a long or short amount of time, and thereby cause an increased flush by holding it longer. If this is correct, is the minimum flush the rated amount of water for the toilet, and holding it longer uses more than 1.28 or 1.6 or whatever the particular toilet spec is? Does this hold for that 1.0G Drake II too?
    Sort of...

    Toto puts more water in the tank than is going to be used on any individual flush. In normal operation, you push the lever and let go. The flapper opens and then closes after the right amount of water has been loosed into the bowl, leaving a good deal of water in the tank. The reason for this design is simple: the weight of the extra water provides increased force on the water that IS used in the flush, and pushes it faster through the flush valve. Pretty clever.

    Because the flapper closes before the tank empties, one can hold the lever down and cause the toilet to use more water. Some people have called this a dual-flush. Some people have erroneously stated that you use a regular push on the lever for liquid and hold the thing down for solid. This is wrong. The thing works just fine for almost everything with a regular push on the lever. However, it IS true that if the bowl seems overloaded, you can hold the lever down to drain the whole tank just to make sure that it all goes down. This is useful on an occasional basis, but it's incorrect to use the method like you would a dual-flush.

    You are correct that with a regular push, the toilet uses 1.28 or 1.6 or whatever the rating of the toilet, and with holding the valve open by holding the lever, you will use around twice that. There isn't twice as much water in the tank, but the tank is going to refill longer than usual and thus the refill water into the bowl will be more than usual, and that will just run over the weir and down the drain.

    The Drake II 1G uses a different flush valve than the rest of the non-dual-flush fleet. It isn't just a flapper attached to a chain, so I can't say for sure whether holding the lever in one position will necessarily hold the valve open. Toto customer service could probably tell you, though.

    The Drake II 1.28gpf toilet does use a standard flapper flush valve, as does the Ultramax II. So you can do the above with them. They are both excellent toilets.

  6. #21
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    All modern toilets (with few exceptions) only drain part of the tank when you flush. If you insist on using more, you hold the handle down to drain the whole tank. This normally doesn't do anything more than waste water. You can call it dual flush, and some do, but draining the tank sort of violates the principle of low-flow, water saver. With any modern toilet, you fully depress the handle and immediately let go, and if it passed certification and you haven't modified anything, it uses the stated amount of water.

    A true dual-flush toilet with decent specs will have either a shallower or narrower water spot than one that isn't. This is so that when you use the small flush, it can still evacuate the entire bowl - you don't want to just dilute what may be left, you want it gone. This is why retrofitting an old toilet with a dual-flush valve doesn't really work well - the bowl has more water in it, and the smaller amount allowed to get through on a flush isn't enough to fully empty the bowl, but it will dilute it considerably. Because a shallower water spot means a large deposit may not be covered, it can be smellier until it is flushed away. A deeper water spot can cover it, but then there's more opportunity to get skid marks along the way to it that may not wash off as well during the flush with the lower volume. There are tradeoffs you have to accept with a dual-flush toilet generally not needed with a good single flush one. Generally, the bowl will not stay as clean, depending on the consistency of your deposit and aim. On a Toto, SanaGlos helps, since it is quite smooth, stuff doesn't stick as much, and washes off easier. But, there is only so much a limited amount of water can do; unlike the old gully washers of old that might have used 5-8 gallons...
    Jim DeBruycker
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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  7. #22
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be concerned about the washdown flush on the Aquia. Toto uses a washdown flush on all its dual-flush toilets, basically for the reason Jim mentions -- you want to be able to evacuate the whole bowl with the smaller amount of water. And you get good bowl rinse with it as well.

    Duravit's dual-flush toilets, including their wall hungs, also use a washdown flush for the same reason. (The only thing about the Duravit washdown flush is that, in my experience, you never get that comforting gurgle at the end of the flush. On the Totos, at least the ones I have experienced firsthand, you usually do.)

  8. #23
    DIY Junior Member JerryMR's Avatar
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    Gotta have the gurgle. I think it's looking pretty likely we'll get the Aquia for the hall bath. It's really a shame the Maris is only available in white. We'll test out the Aquia before making decisions on the other two toilets. Thanks everyone for all the great info - truly helpful.

    -Jerry

  9. #24
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    The colors are harder to make, slight variances in glaze application show up much more than with white. WHen you are selling all you can in one color, adding others that are more time consuming and prone to rework or trashing is not a high priority right away. When the supply catches up with demand, the other choices start to show up.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  10. #25
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Jim's right, of course. Looking back in the review threads in the mid-2000s, it's interesting to see reports there that such-and-such a toilet, like the original Drake, isn't available in such-and-such a color. Once a sufficient supply of a new product, like the Maris or the Drake II 1G, makes its way around the distribution system, and seems to be a winner, then it begins to be worth making variations of it.

    As an example, the Drake II 1G has been available literally since November, in small batches, from the largest Toto wholesaler, but only recently found its way to the distributor that supplies Terry. Toto obviously doesn't want to start making variations until its loyal plumber-clients are well-supplied. The Maris is a little more of a niche product than the 1G, so I am not surprised that it is still finding its way around in white. I suspect that if it is a success, you'll see other colors down the line.

  11. #26
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Given that you mentioned a concern about the toilet's ability to handle large stools, and only for that reason, I commend to you the following video linked to by one of our posters. It is an actual video of an Original Drake swallowing an apparently-real and certainly-large stool. It's not for the squeamish, because of the subject matter, and I hesitate to recommend it, but on the other hand it does appear to illustrate the device's ability to address your actual concern. The narration is juvenile, so you can flip it off if you wish.

    The toilet at issue is not dual-flush, and it is 1.28gpf, not double-cyclone, just the straight E-Max flush. Powerful and effective, though...

    Model CST744E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_90v8inpucg
    Last edited by wjcandee; 02-04-2013 at 07:34 AM.

  12. #27
    DIY Junior Member JerryMR's Avatar
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    We ended up getting the Aquia and have been using it for several weeks now. So far it's handled everything that's gone into it, and we're very happy. In fact, we ordered two more for the other two bathrooms. Thanks everyone for all the good advice and information.

    -Jerry

  13. #28
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Thanks for following up! It's great to hear what you decided and how you liked it.

    Terry always says that he has sold hundreds and hundreds of Aquias, with only a couple of returns -- a better than 99% satisfaction rate.

    I'm glad to know that you and your family are not only satisfied, but satisfied enough to buy two more. That pretty much says it all!

    Thanks again for letting us know.

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