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Thread: Proper System Design for Well Water Systems

  1. #16
    DIY Junior Member dhoerl's Avatar
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    Default Storage tanks

    I appreciate all the responses. To answer some questions - the filter picks up a lot of red clay, so its definitely needed. The water softener won't pass more than 7 or 8 gpm. Don't know about the UV setup - it might be higher.

    A 75 gallon water heater, with a 38 degree city water feed, will **just** fill the tub in the deep winter. (With in-house storage, and thus warmer water, I expect the well system to do better). 1" copper for cold and hot for most of the run, and 3/4" the rest of the way, and Kohlers curved "C" spout, will fill a 80 gallon Pearl tub in about 3 minutes. So, the flow is more like 27 GPM (the faucet says it can deliver 50 at 60PSI, thus my confusion). 3Min is just fine to fill a tub. [The current house takes 10 min to fill a 4 1/2 foot tub - 1/2" copper everywhere, old valves, etc.]

    As I said before, this is first well for me. I never heard of polyethelene storage tanks - can someone suggest a site to get more info? I assume then that I use some type of water pump, or air pressure pump, to get delivery...

    Thanks again for all the info (which I am trying to sort through :->)

    David

  2. #17
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    David, Send me a private message with your EMail, or read your private messages.

  3. #18
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    David, the red clay is more liikely to be caused by ferrous iron in the water but, even if it is red clay, it won't hurt most softeners because it will be backwashed out of the resin bed.

    I agree with Firebob that your well system isn't going to be capable of 50 gpm unless you replace the pump with a much larger pump (gpm and hp) and to that you'll probably have to replace the power cable or you'll burn up the one for a 3/4 hp pump.

    You are forgetting the water quality once you get all this watr into the tub. The house has a softener and UV and you won't like the water quality without them but... when you get the price for a softener that can successfully remove hardness, iron and maybe manganese from a 50 gpm flow, you will be shocked for sure BUT... wait til you hear the price for the UV light for a 50 gpm flow!!!

    Also, a pressure (not storage) tank isn't going to get you more water flow; you'll need an atmospheric storage tank and a pump to represurize the water in it. And raising the psi to 100... your pump and plumbing must be capable of the pressure required AND softeners and disposable filter housings are rated at 125 psi and if you have any water hammer at all, you'll exceed that rating and have 50 gpm flowing all over until you discover the problem.

    Me thinks this project needs rethinking.

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates

  4. #19
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    Engineering is the process of finding economical solutions that meet the customer's needs. There are solutions to all of the "problems" that have been raised.

    A System That Will Work, with all treatment elements in the existing well pump stream, for which they presumably have adequate capacity:

    Elements in order:
    1. Existing submersible pump
    2. Filter and softener, in order to be determined, protected by relief valve and pressure switch with controls to shut off pump if pressure is exceeded
    3. UV to treat the well pump flow (existing)
    4. Discharge to a polyethylene tank (capacity based on expected demand) at atmospheric pressure, with float switch to control the submersible pump and a float switch to shut off the high flow pump if level in the tank is low.
    5. High volume pump with adequate pressure for the system; probably a multistage centrifugal; with controls to protect the pump if the storage tank runs out of water.
    6. Pressure tank to keep the pump cycle within acceptable limits, based on pump selection.
    7. Water heater to serve peak hour demand

    Questions that must be answered to design the system:
    1. Determine water flow and pressure requirements to meet customer needs
    2. Determine complete treatment requirements based on water tests and customer needs
    3. Water softener backwash and regeneration usually operates off a pressurized system. It will probably require use of water from the pressurized tank for backwash and regeneration, and controls to implement that process.
    4. Verify that there is no requirement to filter after the softener to protect the UV system.

  5. #20
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    Sorry Firebob, I should read on instead of just looking at your drawing.

    bob...

  6. #21
    DIY Member jimmym's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Bob NH]Engineering is the process of finding economical solutions that meet the customer's needs. There are solutions to all of the "problems" that have been raised.
    <snip>
    QUOTE]

    Why not make it a constant pressure system too? At this point and complexity, you might as well just go the extra mile. Either cycle stop valve or VSD.

  7. #22
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    "Why not make it a constant pressure system too? At this point and complexity, you might as well just go the extra mile. Either cycle stop valve or VSD."

    Filters exhibit increasing pressure over the life of the filter cycle and the pressure/head characteristic of a submersible pump tends to maintain nearly constant flow. You don't want constant pressure for that application.

    For the second stage, there is an occasional very high demand, and long periods of low demand. Constant pressure systems usually involve running the pump whenever there is demand, and running a high flow pump at enough speed to provide the required pressure, when you need only 10% of its flow capacity, is very wasteful of energy.

    The first step in designing the proposed system would be an analysis of requirements and cost to determine whether the intermediate tank system system with the extra pump is the right answer. It may be that more pressure tank capacity is the most economical way to meet the need to fill the big tub quickly, and it certainly is simpler.

    Simplicity is a very important factor in this kind of application. A second 119 gallon pressure tank would cost about the same as the second pump and storage tank, but it would still be necessary to put the filter and softener before the tank, with appropriate controls, because of the very high flow to the tub. The 119 gallon bladder tanks are only $542 at Grainger.

  8. #23
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    BobNH, how does another allbeit much larger, or a much larger replacement, pressure tank get him flow of 50 gpm? What pressure is required to get him 50 gpm flow into the tub and multiple shower heads from the basement to the 2nd or 3rd floor bathroom?

    Is his present pump and pressure tank capable of refilling that new larger tank so he has water for other uses while the shower is running or the tub is filling? I think not but I know fer sure the softener and UV aren't sized for the flow; simply because he is changing the bathroom fixtures and adding to them.

    Treating the water with the present equipment, before it goes into an atmospheric storage tank is an option IF the softener is correctly sized now for his present peak demand flow rate; which most are not and I doubt the UV is much more than an 8-12 gpm model. Otherwise the softener is misapplied. IF so, then a new softener is in his future ESPECIALLY if we are running that water into an atmospheric storage tank at open discharge, ot we throttle it back t othe SFR gpm of the softener. And either way, the water in that tank will not hold quality, so treatment after that tank, such as UV, will be required, and that will have to be at 50 gpm. Agreed?

    Also, constantly starting and stopping a pump is much more engery deficient than starting it once and allowing it to run until no more water is being used; that is much more energy efficient. Plus it extends the life of the motor/pump.

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates

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