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Thread: 10 inch toilet in 12 inch rough in - tank brace suggestions?

  1. #16
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wptski View Post
    Can you actually prove what your saying about dumping the seconds on discount stores?
    Read through some of the horror stories here on peoples experiences...lopsided bowls, missing glaze, holes, tank covers that were twisted and warped so they wouldn't sit flat...any company with any sort of quality control would never have them leave the factory. More than one person opened more than one box before they found one acceptable on all pieces. No manufacturer can stay solvent making really crappy products, so hopefully rejects are a small percentage of their output. Empirical evidence points to the big box stores accepting anything off the assembly line. The vast majority of them are good, but the (slightly) bad ones make it through because they aren't caught. One reason why the same toilet at a plumbing supply store may cost more, another is their volume; a plumber can't take the time to replace a defective toilet - a big box store purchaser may not recognize a defect, or think they're all like that, and the store and buyer become the QA group. Any less than perfect ones the homeowner doesn't bring back is more profit for all rather than having the factory destroy it.
    Jim DeBruycker
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  2. #17
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    Read through some of the horror stories here on peoples experiences...lopsided bowls, missing glaze, holes, tank covers that were twisted and warped so they wouldn't sit flat...any company with any sort of quality control would never have them leave the factory. More than one person opened more than one box before they found one acceptable on all pieces. No manufacturer can stay solvent making really crappy products, so hopefully rejects are a small percentage of their output. Empirical evidence points to the big box stores accepting anything off the assembly line. The vast majority of them are good, but the (slightly) bad ones make it through because they aren't caught. One reason why the same toilet at a plumbing supply store may cost more, another is their volume; a plumber can't take the time to replace a defective toilet - a big box store purchaser may not recognize a defect, or think they're all like that, and the store and buyer become the QA group. Any less than perfect ones the homeowner doesn't bring back is more profit for all rather than having the factory destroy it.
    Well, do customers who purchased a toilet with defects from a plumber come here to complain? I think not. DIY'rs purchase from big box stores as it's cheaper. It's poor quality for sure. You'd have to compare the same brand/model sold by a plumber to a big box store to really prove your point.
    Bill
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  3. #18
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    SOme of the plumbers here refuse to install a toilet bought from a big box store because of the problems they've had. It's typical that they do not offer more than an installation warranty, and if the toilet is defective, you pay them, rather than them covering it.

    Plumbers won't put up with defective products, and even though a big box store might be cheaper than their distributor, they don't buy them there. That must tell you something, too.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  4. #19
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    SOme of the plumbers here refuse to install a toilet bought from a big box store because of the problems they've had. It's typical that they do not offer more than an installation warranty, and if the toilet is defective, you pay them, rather than them covering it.

    Plumbers won't put up with defective products, and even though a big box store might be cheaper than their distributor, they don't buy them there. That must tell you something, too.
    So if I go to my local plumbing supply's walk-in showroom I should see a pristine lineup of American Standard products or at least the cream of the crop? You guys normally are anti-AS.
    Bill
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  5. #20
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Plumbers don't want to install things that give them problems. They do install AS products, but they don't (generally) buy them from a big box store because of experience. Any manufacturer has an occasional defect that gets through, but if you ask Terry his defect rate, Toto has the lowest figure of all of the brands he sells. What you might find on the plumbing supply showroom is a defect that they didn't want to trash or send back. Generally, those are non-functional (i.e., they're not actually plumbed to work), so if it isn't obvious, why use one at 100%, when you have one that isn't.
    Jim DeBruycker
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  6. #21
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    Plumbers don't want to install things that give them problems. They do install AS products, but they don't (generally) buy them from a big box store because of experience. Any manufacturer has an occasional defect that gets through, but if you ask Terry his defect rate, Toto has the lowest figure of all of the brands he sells. What you might find on the plumbing supply showroom is a defect that they didn't want to trash or send back. Generally, those are non-functional (i.e., they're not actually plumbed to work), so if it isn't obvious, why use one at 100%, when you have one that isn't.
    Don't expect to see a functional toilet in a showroom but I really don't see any sense in them having a product that has a major flaw to show potential customers. Just not how to make a sale. Like a new car dealer having one with a bad paint job in their showroom floor.
    Bill
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  7. #22
    In the Trades Gary Swart's Avatar
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    Bill, you make a good point about a dealer of anything not wanting a defective product in his showroom, but at the same time, a new car on the showroom floor and a toilet on display are hardly comparable. And that said, it is unlikely that a plumbing supply would use a defective toilet for a display. A plumbing dealer would inspect incoming merchandise very carefully and return a defective unit immediately. It should be noted that no one on the forum that I am aware of say that ALL AS toilets are faulty, just that those sold to discount stores seem to have a much higher percentage of defects. Is that proof? Probably not in court, but for many professional plumbers it's proof enough that they don't deal with them. If AS seems to be the best deal for you, go for it. There are many folks that have them and are very satisfied and maybe you will be too.

  8. #23
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wptski View Post
    Don't expect to see a functional toilet in a showroom but I really don't see any sense in them having a product that has a major flaw to show potential customers. Just not how to make a sale. Like a new car dealer having one with a bad paint job in their showroom floor.
    I wouldn't expect one with a major flaw, but it's easy to shim one that's warped on the bottom to sit nice and flat...and if it isn't visible, it makes a good display unit.

    Other than looking for obvious packaging problems, I doubt there's any dealer that actually opens packages to check, nor do many plumbers. They buy things from the factory, expecting them to have passed a good QA/QC check.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  9. #24
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Swart View Post
    Bill, you make a good point about a dealer of anything not wanting a defective product in his showroom, but at the same time, a new car on the showroom floor and a toilet on display are hardly comparable. And that said, it is unlikely that a plumbing supply would use a defective toilet for a display. A plumbing dealer would inspect incoming merchandise very carefully and return a defective unit immediately. It should be noted that no one on the forum that I am aware of say that ALL AS toilets are faulty, just that those sold to discount stores seem to have a much higher percentage of defects. Is that proof? Probably not in court, but for many professional plumbers it's proof enough that they don't deal with them. If AS seems to be the best deal for you, go for it. There are many folks that have them and are very satisfied and maybe you will be too.
    If I had a toilet installed by a Pro I wouldn't come here to complain about quality, only a DIY'r comes here and we mostly buy from the big box stores. No, can't compare cars to toilets but It was about what one puts on a showroom floor whatever it may be.

    My original AS Cadet 3 had a leaky tank at/around the flush valve and the second one had better glazing but only noticeable if looking very close with a flashlight. I was tempted to retry it along with the seal from a Fluidmaster 540AKR kit which I used on the replacement anyway. I got $60 back on tank swap but wasn't worth the hassle dealing with the Home Depot online lack of knowledge at every turn.
    Bill
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  10. #25
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    I wouldn't expect one with a major flaw, but it's easy to shim one that's warped on the bottom to sit nice and flat...and if it isn't visible, it makes a good display unit.

    Other than looking for obvious packaging problems, I doubt there's any dealer that actually opens packages to check, nor do many plumbers. They buy things from the factory, expecting them to have passed a good QA/QC check.
    Isn't having to use a shim common? It might the floor and not the toilet.
    Bill
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