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Thread: Dead Culligan Estate 2 - How to remove & what's next?

  1. #31
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    The standard residential softener control valve BLFC has been .5gpm or 1.5lbs per minute for the last few decades until someone thought it would be a good idea to start using .125 or .25 gpm for the 7000. He has a 5600 control valve, not a 7000. If it is available, IMO those with a 7000 should be using a .5 gpm.
    Right, because you know more about the design than the manufacturer one should change the time the resin is soaked in brine during regeneration to be shorter than the mfg spec based on your recommend.

    If the 5600 is designed to work with 0.5 GPM BLFC, I won't argue the point. I just observe it is a small softener and the resin will only spend about 5 minutes soaking in brine when it could be easily adjusted to be 2X or 4X that long.
    Lifespeed

  2. #32
    DIY Member hiperco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    Right, because you know more about the design than the manufacturer one should change the time the resin is soaked in brine during regeneration to be shorter than the mfg spec based on your recommend.

    If the 5600 is designed to work with 0.5 GPM BLFC, I won't argue the point. I just observe it is a small softener and the resin will only spend about 5 minutes soaking in brine when it could be easily adjusted to be 2X or 4X that long.
    Based on my recent learning on this subject, I think you are mistaken on how a softener works (and you are bordering on contentious besides) . Brine fill determines how much water gets added to the brine tank (and over what timespan). Brine draw is what soaks the resin with brine and this is set up at one hour by default in my 5600SXT.

    Now, can anyone that has experience with the 5600SXT comment on my proposed settings?

  3. #33
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Hiperco, you are missing some important information on the subject. Brine draw is based on injector size and water pressure/feet of head (backpressure from the drain line). A #1 injector on a 5600 series valve draws th brine solution out of the brine tank at a rate of approximately .3 GPM. So a system regenerating with 9 pounds of salt will empty the bine from the brine tank in about 10 minutes. The minimum recommended time is typically 15 minutes. Is this critical? Probably not, but the closer we can get to that 15 minutes, the more effieicent the system becomes.

    Sigh... the 7000 uses a specific BLFC because the water flows through the injector during refill. That is one of the reasons the 7000 uses the smaller BLFC buttons, and the fact that in order to meet certain stated efficiency standards, smaller and more accurate BLFC buttons are preferred. And since the system is producing soft water topplication while it is refilling the brine tank, does it really matter if the brine refill takes 5 minutes or 3 hours? It really has no bearing on anything.

    Here is a simple bulletin explaining the Injector size recommendations based on tank sizing. http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com...structions.pdf These charts are used to ensure that the systems maintain proper effieicncies. Of course we can throw a huge injector in a system and knock the entire brine/slow rinse cycle down to 10 minutes, and throw in a huge refill button and knock the refill down to 2 minutes, but this does not make for a properly functioning, efficient system design.


    Now to your system.

    I woud recommend as follows.

    Capacity 30 (24K pre cu ft, 8 pounds of salt per Cu. ft, good balance of efficiency and water quality)
    Hardness, set to actual
    RS set to SF
    SF set to 15
    DO set to 30
    RT set to 2:00 a.m.
    BW set to 5
    BD set to 60
    RR set to 5
    BF set to 7


    Do not try to overcomplicate this. If you want it to be super efficient, let me know and we can tweak these settings a little.
    Last edited by ditttohead; 09-30-2013 at 12:36 PM.

  4. #34
    DIY Member hiperco's Avatar
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    Let me be the first to admit that its likely that I don't know what I'm talking about

    Now let me generalize my question: How can I achieve optimized salt efficiency with my 1.25cuft system with a 5600SXT valve equipped with a 0.5BLFC and a 2.4DLFC?

  5. #35
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    See above. Those settings will give you a good balance of efficiency and high quality soft water. We can tweak these settings but the difference may be as little as 1/2 bag of salt per year difference.

  6. #36
    DIY Member hiperco's Avatar
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    Thanks for the settings! In order to advance my learning, I have some questions regarding where your numbers differ from the "generic" settings from my supplier. Can you explain how you got to those? My comments next to your settings:

    Capacity 30 (24K pre cu ft, 8 pounds of salt per Cu. ft, good balance of efficiency and water quality) --> OK
    Hardness, set to actual -->OK (Hach 5B test kit shipping to me today)
    RS set to SF -->OK
    SF set to 15 -->OK
    DO set to 30 -->This seems long, and the supplier suggests no more than 10 days??
    RT set to 2:00 a.m. -->OK
    BW set to 5 --> Supplier suggests 10
    BD set to 60 -->OK
    RR set to 5 --> Supplier suggests 10
    BF set to 7 -->OK, gives 10.5 lbs of salt (8.4 lbs/cuft)

    Thanks!

  7. #37
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Capacity 30 (24K pre cu ft, 8 pounds of salt per Cu. ft, good balance of efficiency and water quality) --> OK
    Hardness, set to actual -->OK (Hach 5B test kit shipping to me today)
    RS set to SF -->OK
    SF set to 15 -->OK
    DO set to 30 -->This seems long, and the supplier suggests no more than 10 days?? Does not matter, this is not an issue. Systems can go for long periods of time between regenerations. A good example would be the old electromechanical metered systems. many of these would go for many weeks or even over a month between regenerations. They did not have an over-ride function. It does not hurt resin in a resdiential application. Even if it did, what is going to be the difference? Resin is cheap, and it can last for many years if not decades depending on the sapplication. This issue has been discussed at length on this website. Another good example is exchange tank companies, these tanks will stay on-site for months on end without regenerating, and again, no problem.
    RT set to 2:00 a.m. -->OK
    BW set to 5 --> Supplier suggests 10 (not critical, clean water 5 minutes, a tiny bit of sediment, 10 minute, dirty water, longer)
    BD set to 60 -->OK
    RR set to 5 --> Supplier suggests 10 (Not critical, 5 or 10 minutes is fine, the fast rinse cycle packs the resin down, and it also ensures the softest water after a regeneration, for you small system, it really doesnt matter.)
    BF set to 7 -->OK, gives 10.5 lbs of salt (8.4 lbs/cuft) That is as close as you can get on the 5600SXT with a .5 GPM BLFC.

  8. #38
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
    Right, because you know more about the design than the manufacturer one should change the time the resin is soaked in brine during regeneration to be shorter than the mfg spec based on your recommend.

    If the 5600 is designed to work with 0.5 GPM BLFC, I won't argue the point. I just observe it is a small softener and the resin will only spend about 5 minutes soaking in brine when it could be easily adjusted to be 2X or 4X that long.
    Actually I was classified by the government as a softener manufacturer for over 20+ years but... you are wrong, brine refill is what we are talking about, not slow the slow rinse/brine draw cycle that you are confusing it with.

    The slow rinse/brine draw cycle controls the length of time brine is drawn and during that time that the brine is sucked out of the salt tank. Usually the brine is all sucked out in the first 10-20 minutes of slow rinse/brine draw and that stops when the level reaches the air check in the salt tank or, on/in the control valve. Usually for most residential softeners, the slow rinse/brine draw runs for 45-60 minutes. After that there is a fast/rapid rinse cycle to make sure all the brine is removed from the resin bed. Then the brine refill cycle adds the volume of water needed to dissolve the lbs of salt needed for the next regeneration. Basically the BLFC controls how many gpm flows to/from the salt tank during the slow rinse/brine draw and brine refill cycle positions.

    I see dittohead gets into fractions of minutes for various BLFCs salt doses etc. as if it is critical and life threatening.... I just love how good he is at dazzling with BS. Yet we all say it takes a gallon of refill water to dissolve 3 lbs of salt for the salt dose when in reality, we usually get 2.7 lbs per gallon. I suppose that some low information guys could get their shorts all in a bind over that too.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 10-01-2013 at 09:08 AM.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #39
    DIY Member hiperco's Avatar
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    I wish everyone would set aside the contentiousness. This is a great site but I don't know why there is always this low level bitterness going on. I for one appreciate everyones input, and its even better when it helps me Anyways:

    1) I think what lifespeed was saying is that the brine draw time is affected by the brine fill volume. More brine volume will result in a longer brine draw time. In my case, I'm stuck with the 0.5g/min BLFC, which also comes into play during the brine draw cycle.

    2) I don't see any fractions in what dittohead proposed. I did the math (for my own information)and came up with fractions, they are what they are.

    I did a regen last night (first time for this install) using the new settings and everything seemed to work. Thanks everyone for the help so far!

  10. #40
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    On the 7000 brine draw is through the same BLFC button as brine fill, hence the same time for the brine draw portion of brine draw slow rinse.

    I am not familiar with the 5600, but I thought the flow controls were replaceable. My point was simply that better efficiency would result from a longer brine draw time.
    Lifespeed

  11. #41
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiperco View Post
    I wish everyone would set aside the contentiousness. This is a great site but I don't know why there is always this low level bitterness going on. I for one appreciate everyones input, and its even better when it helps me Anyways:
    There have been a few here that simply love to disagree with most things I say. It's been going on for years. I'd hope you can get through it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiperco View Post
    1) I think what lifespeed was saying is that the brine draw time is affected by the brine fill volume. More brine volume will result in a longer brine draw time. In my case, I'm stuck with the 0.5g/min BLFC, which also comes into play during the brine draw cycle.
    In a way you're right that the brine draw will take longer with a higher salt dose (volume of brine refill) but it won't go for more than 10-20 minutes in the vast majority of residential softeners. The length of the time for the combination slow rinse/brine draw is set in the control valve and the air check, as part of the brine pickup/float in the salt tank (on most if not all common Autotrol valves) controls stops the brine draw part of the slow rinse/brine draw cycle position while the slow rinse continues. And that has little to nothing to do with the "efficiency" of a water softener unless yer anal about things.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiperco View Post
    2) I don't see any fractions in what dittohead proposed. I did the math (for my own information)and came up with fractions, they are what they are.
    Most fractions are rounded up to the next whole number.

    Quote Originally Posted by hiperco View Post
    I did a regen last night (first time for this install) using the new settings and everything seemed to work. Thanks everyone for the help so far!
    That needless regeneration did nothing but use up salt, time and water that didn't have to be used. Well, it did remove any air that was trapped in the resin tank if the dealer's installation instructions didn't have you put the valve in Backwash before turning the water on etc. after installation. And it showed you the control valve stepped from one cycle position to another without leaking I guess. It also added some water to the salt tank if the instructions didn't have you do that specifically and if so, it usually is not enough for a regeneration's salt dose because there is always a 1/2" to a couple inches of brine water left in the tank when the air check shuts off the brine draw.

    I see you bought an H5 test kit. Do you think your hardness is different than the hardness you used to size and buy the softener for?

    lifespeed.... the brine draw is controlled by the air check, not the slow rinse/brine draw cycle position time. The air check is set mechanically and usually permanently in many softeners so it is not adjustable in most cases. Cheap quality float controlled air checks can be adjusted mechanically. Usually Fleck valves have a permanent air check height as part of the brine pick up tube and that tube is cut off to the correct height for the salt tank being used. Usually a 1/2" to 2" off the bottom unless the dealer uses a salt grid and then adjusts it to allow an inch of water over the grid at the end of brine refill cycle position (which depends on the type of grid if that is necessary). And again, none of that has to do with efficiency unless yer into a very small amount of water efficiency.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  12. #42
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    Air check valve cuts off brine flow when all the brine is use. Brine draw timer stops slow rinse.

    Fact remains that BLFC controls the rate that brine washes over the bed.
    Lifespeed

  13. #43
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    The fact remains that slow rinse and brine draw are combined in the same cycle position, they are not separate, and after the air check shuts off the brine draw, the slow rinse continues until the control valve moves to the next cycle position. And then, to make sure all the brine is rinsed out of the resin bed and to compact the bed for Service, there is a fast rinse flow controlled by the DLFC. That is usually run for 5-15 minutes for the majority of residential softeners.

    You think if the brine were left in the bed longer it would somehow make the softener, or brining, more efficient. Tell us how it would do that and why it would be needed when millions of softeners, many of them with very high efficiency based on their water and salt use haven't needed to do it.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #44
    DIY Senior Member lifespeed's Avatar
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    LOL. They choose an appropriate brine rate by installing the corresponding BLFC button.

    Done here . . .
    Lifespeed

  15. #45
    DIY Member hiperco's Avatar
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    On a lighter note, here is a picture of my install. Fleck 90 degree adapter, pex 3/4 swivel adapters, pex piping & fittings, topped off with sharkbites
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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