Dead Culligan Estate 2 - How to remove & what's next?

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Hiperco

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Got the softener installed today...Question - Does a new softener need a regeneration cycle up front? Or does the resin provide softening out of the box?
 

Mikey

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I think most of the pro's recommend at least one up-front regen. One on-line startup guide that is otherwise pretty thorough doesn't mention it, but the outfit I use explicitly says to go through a regeneration. Another says "Once reassembled you should backwash your new resins for 10 minutes using your control valve (All control valves have some way to manually advance the valve to backwash.). You can allow the valve to run a complete regeneration cycle, but it is not needed. The resins come fully charged." So flip a coin, I guess. I'd go through one cycle anyway just to verify everything is working properly.
 
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Gary Slusser

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The reason many online dealers say to do a regeneration is because they don't have their customer put the valve into backwash when their instructions tell them to turn on the water slowly until they have a full drain line flow and then to turn the water on full open until the water flows clear. Not doing that traps air and any debris caused during installation. Then the person should step the valve through each cycle position until the brine refill position and stop and let the valve finish the cycle. Some do not mention adding water to the salt tank either.

New resin does not have to be regenerated, it is fully regenerated right out of the bag.
 

Hiperco

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OK, thanks.

Now, how to set up the 5600SXT for maximum salt efficiency? I have the 0.5 gal/1.5 lb brine connection. Total system capacity is 40000.

EDIT: Let me see if I can figure this out:

6lbs of salt with 1.25cuft gives 25K capacity. To get 7.5 lbs (6 lbs/cuft with 1.25cuft), I need 5 minutes of backflow. SO, setting the Capacity to 25K and BF to 4 minutes should do it? Any of the other settings (backwash time, brine draw, rapid rinse) need to change?

Capacity: 25K
Hardness: 15
RS: SF
SF: 20%
DO: 10
RT: 2:00 AM
BW: 10
RR: 10
BF: 5
 
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Lifespeed

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you need to know your brine line flow rate, it should be marked on the softener as .125 GPM or .25 GPM. That will tell you gallons of brine at 3 lbs salt per gallon. Your BF 5 minutes can't be correct.
 

Lifespeed

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As mentioned above I have a 0.5gal/1.5lb per minute brine flow rate.

From my very limited experience that is too fast of a brine rate for that size softener. That button controls the rate at which the brine passes over your resin bed during regeneration, and I think it may be too fast.
 

Hiperco

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I think the brine fill rate is just that. Its how much water goes into the brine tank. Then the brine is drawn out during the brine draw cycle. But hopefully someone that knows for sure will chime in :)
 

Gary Slusser

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you need to know your brine line flow rate, it should be marked on the softener as .125 GPM or .25 GPM. That will tell you gallons of brine at 3 lbs salt per gallon. Your BF 5 minutes can't be correct.
The standard residential softener control valve BLFC has been .5gpm or 1.5lbs per minute for the last few decades until someone thought it would be a good idea to start using .125 or .25 gpm for the 7000. He has a 5600 control valve, not a 7000. If it is available, IMO those with a 7000 should be using a .5 gpm.
 

Lifespeed

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The standard residential softener control valve BLFC has been .5gpm or 1.5lbs per minute for the last few decades until someone thought it would be a good idea to start using .125 or .25 gpm for the 7000. He has a 5600 control valve, not a 7000. If it is available, IMO those with a 7000 should be using a .5 gpm.

Right, because you know more about the design than the manufacturer one should change the time the resin is soaked in brine during regeneration to be shorter than the mfg spec based on your recommend.

If the 5600 is designed to work with 0.5 GPM BLFC, I won't argue the point. I just observe it is a small softener and the resin will only spend about 5 minutes soaking in brine when it could be easily adjusted to be 2X or 4X that long.
 

Lifespeed

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The standard residential softener control valve BLFC has been .5gpm or 1.5lbs per minute for the last few decades until someone thought it would be a good idea to start using .125 or .25 gpm for the 7000. He has a 5600 control valve, not a 7000. If it is available, IMO those with a 7000 should be using a .5 gpm.

Right, because you know more about the design than the manufacturer one should change the time the resin is soaked in brine during regeneration to be shorter than the mfg spec based on your recommend.

If the 5600 is designed to work with 0.5 GPM BLFC, I won't argue the point. I just observe it is a small softener and the resin will only spend about 5 minutes soaking in brine when it could be easily adjusted to be 2X or 4X that long.
 

Hiperco

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Right, because you know more about the design than the manufacturer one should change the time the resin is soaked in brine during regeneration to be shorter than the mfg spec based on your recommend.

If the 5600 is designed to work with 0.5 GPM BLFC, I won't argue the point. I just observe it is a small softener and the resin will only spend about 5 minutes soaking in brine when it could be easily adjusted to be 2X or 4X that long.

Based on my recent learning on this subject, I think you are mistaken on how a softener works (and you are bordering on contentious besides) . Brine fill determines how much water gets added to the brine tank (and over what timespan). Brine draw is what soaks the resin with brine and this is set up at one hour by default in my 5600SXT.

Now, can anyone that has experience with the 5600SXT comment on my proposed settings? :)
 

ditttohead

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Hiperco, you are missing some important information on the subject. Brine draw is based on injector size and water pressure/feet of head (backpressure from the drain line). A #1 injector on a 5600 series valve draws th brine solution out of the brine tank at a rate of approximately .3 GPM. So a system regenerating with 9 pounds of salt will empty the bine from the brine tank in about 10 minutes. The minimum recommended time is typically 15 minutes. Is this critical? Probably not, but the closer we can get to that 15 minutes, the more effieicent the system becomes.

Sigh... the 7000 uses a specific BLFC because the water flows through the injector during refill. That is one of the reasons the 7000 uses the smaller BLFC buttons, and the fact that in order to meet certain stated efficiency standards, smaller and more accurate BLFC buttons are preferred. And since the system is producing soft water topplication while it is refilling the brine tank, does it really matter if the brine refill takes 5 minutes or 3 hours? It really has no bearing on anything.

Here is a simple bulletin explaining the Injector size recommendations based on tank sizing. http://www.pentairwatertreatment.co...nt/Bulletins/599-7000 Sizing Instructions.pdf These charts are used to ensure that the systems maintain proper effieicncies. Of course we can throw a huge injector in a system and knock the entire brine/slow rinse cycle down to 10 minutes, and throw in a huge refill button and knock the refill down to 2 minutes, but this does not make for a properly functioning, efficient system design.


Now to your system.

I woud recommend as follows.

Capacity 30 (24K pre cu ft, 8 pounds of salt per Cu. ft, good balance of efficiency and water quality)
Hardness, set to actual
RS set to SF
SF set to 15
DO set to 30
RT set to 2:00 a.m.
BW set to 5
BD set to 60
RR set to 5
BF set to 7


Do not try to overcomplicate this. If you want it to be super efficient, let me know and we can tweak these settings a little.
 
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Hiperco

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Let me be the first to admit that its likely that I don't know what I'm talking about :)

Now let me generalize my question: How can I achieve optimized salt efficiency with my 1.25cuft system with a 5600SXT valve equipped with a 0.5BLFC and a 2.4DLFC? :)
 

ditttohead

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See above. Those settings will give you a good balance of efficiency and high quality soft water. We can tweak these settings but the difference may be as little as 1/2 bag of salt per year difference.
 

Hiperco

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Thanks for the settings! In order to advance my learning, I have some questions regarding where your numbers differ from the "generic" settings from my supplier. Can you explain how you got to those? My comments next to your settings:

Capacity 30 (24K pre cu ft, 8 pounds of salt per Cu. ft, good balance of efficiency and water quality) --> OK
Hardness, set to actual -->OK (Hach 5B test kit shipping to me today)
RS set to SF -->OK
SF set to 15 -->OK
DO set to 30 -->This seems long, and the supplier suggests no more than 10 days??
RT set to 2:00 a.m. -->OK
BW set to 5 --> Supplier suggests 10
BD set to 60 -->OK
RR set to 5 --> Supplier suggests 10
BF set to 7 -->OK, gives 10.5 lbs of salt (8.4 lbs/cuft)

Thanks!
 

ditttohead

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Capacity 30 (24K pre cu ft, 8 pounds of salt per Cu. ft, good balance of efficiency and water quality) --> OK
Hardness, set to actual -->OK (Hach 5B test kit shipping to me today)
RS set to SF -->OK
SF set to 15 -->OK
DO set to 30 -->This seems long, and the supplier suggests no more than 10 days?? Does not matter, this is not an issue. Systems can go for long periods of time between regenerations. A good example would be the old electromechanical metered systems. many of these would go for many weeks or even over a month between regenerations. They did not have an over-ride function. It does not hurt resin in a resdiential application. Even if it did, what is going to be the difference? Resin is cheap, and it can last for many years if not decades depending on the sapplication. This issue has been discussed at length on this website. Another good example is exchange tank companies, these tanks will stay on-site for months on end without regenerating, and again, no problem.
RT set to 2:00 a.m. -->OK
BW set to 5 --> Supplier suggests 10 (not critical, clean water 5 minutes, a tiny bit of sediment, 10 minute, dirty water, longer)
BD set to 60 -->OK
RR set to 5 --> Supplier suggests 10 (Not critical, 5 or 10 minutes is fine, the fast rinse cycle packs the resin down, and it also ensures the softest water after a regeneration, for you small system, it really doesnt matter.)
BF set to 7 -->OK, gives 10.5 lbs of salt (8.4 lbs/cuft) That is as close as you can get on the 5600SXT with a .5 GPM BLFC.
 

Gary Slusser

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Right, because you know more about the design than the manufacturer one should change the time the resin is soaked in brine during regeneration to be shorter than the mfg spec based on your recommend.

If the 5600 is designed to work with 0.5 GPM BLFC, I won't argue the point. I just observe it is a small softener and the resin will only spend about 5 minutes soaking in brine when it could be easily adjusted to be 2X or 4X that long.
Actually I was classified by the government as a softener manufacturer for over 20+ years but... you are wrong, brine refill is what we are talking about, not slow the slow rinse/brine draw cycle that you are confusing it with.

The slow rinse/brine draw cycle controls the length of time brine is drawn and during that time that the brine is sucked out of the salt tank. Usually the brine is all sucked out in the first 10-20 minutes of slow rinse/brine draw and that stops when the level reaches the air check in the salt tank or, on/in the control valve. Usually for most residential softeners, the slow rinse/brine draw runs for 45-60 minutes. After that there is a fast/rapid rinse cycle to make sure all the brine is removed from the resin bed. Then the brine refill cycle adds the volume of water needed to dissolve the lbs of salt needed for the next regeneration. Basically the BLFC controls how many gpm flows to/from the salt tank during the slow rinse/brine draw and brine refill cycle positions.

I see dittohead gets into fractions of minutes for various BLFCs salt doses etc. as if it is critical and life threatening.... I just love how good he is at dazzling with BS. Yet we all say it takes a gallon of refill water to dissolve 3 lbs of salt for the salt dose when in reality, we usually get 2.7 lbs per gallon. I suppose that some low information guys could get their shorts all in a bind over that too.
 
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Hiperco

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I wish everyone would set aside the contentiousness. This is a great site but I don't know why there is always this low level bitterness going on. I for one appreciate everyones input, and its even better when it helps me :) Anyways:

1) I think what lifespeed was saying is that the brine draw time is affected by the brine fill volume. More brine volume will result in a longer brine draw time. In my case, I'm stuck with the 0.5g/min BLFC, which also comes into play during the brine draw cycle.

2) I don't see any fractions in what dittohead proposed. I did the math (for my own information)and came up with fractions, they are what they are.

I did a regen last night (first time for this install) using the new settings and everything seemed to work. :cool: Thanks everyone for the help so far!
 

Lifespeed

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On the 7000 brine draw is through the same BLFC button as brine fill, hence the same time for the brine draw portion of brine draw slow rinse.

I am not familiar with the 5600, but I thought the flow controls were replaceable. My point was simply that better efficiency would result from a longer brine draw time.
 
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