Curbless Shower

**jadnashua** · 01-11-2013, 02:40 PM

I wouldn't really want a switch or receptacle within easy reaching distance of the tub or shower. The control for my towel warmer is on the side opposite the tub/shower, so you'd have to reach over the towel warmer to get to it...it would be tough without getting out of the tub first. I think that there is a code requirement on the distance from a wet area, but don't have access to the codes easily. But, consider the location of a receptacle over a vanity with the sink right there...easy to reach the water and the electrical appliance at the same time...this is one reason GFCI protection is required.

**johnfrwhipple** · 01-12-2013, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by jadnashua

I wouldn't really want a switch or receptacle within easy reaching distance of the tub or shower. The control for my towel warmer is on the side opposite the tub/shower, so you'd have to reach over the towel warmer to get to it...it would be tough without getting out of the tub first. I think that there is a code requirement on the distance from a wet area, but don't have access to the codes easily. But, consider the location of a receptacle over a vanity with the sink right there...easy to reach the water and the electrical appliance at the same time...this is one reason GFCI protection is required.

I've been told that you can GFI protect these switches and it's fine. I think this is so dodgy and unsafe. It's not approved here in Canada and to be honest I wonder if it's even approved in the US. It might be an "Easy Fix" that is commonly done but most likely not approved in new construction.

I'll look into this a bit.

**Freddie** · 01-15-2013, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by johnfrwhipple

Freddie that detail is for a CPE or rubber membrane. Not for a bonded membrane. Ask Geoff about bonded membranes.

JW

I would think that the CPE membrane would be a better waterproofing than the bonded membrane since I have the choice. I guess the difference might be that the CPE membrane needs more protection before tiling? Can't see why but I'll use what I have to use to keep the thickness of the whole install down but would prefer the CPE membrane.

**Freddie** · 01-15-2013, 06:47 PM

John,

Just looking at some of your photos. In my case I have will have a linear drain at the entrance of the shower which is one end of the rectangle. The floor will slope up from there to the back of the shower. I assume that the glass for the side panel would have to be cut to match the slope of the shower and rest on the edge of the incline. Or, can you just rest in on the main bathroom floor and silicone the glass to the edge of the tile? I would think in either case that one would wrap the waterproofing in under the bathroom floor.

Just trying to work ahead until I hear back from some of your buddies.

I'm trying to do the same as on the right photo on page 16 labelled "Installation at the Entrance" except I'll have a door on the entrance as well.

http://www.quartzbyaco.com/sites/default/files/technical_handbook.pdf

**Freddie** · 01-17-2013, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by johnfrwhipple

Quick Drain says you can cut through the subfloor and sit there drain down. Schluter says that. ACO says that. You can if you want to follow their instructions but if your looking up stats from the TCNA or TTMAC you will not find this info. You will also not find a setting material company that will agree with them.

I've done this with all of them but only after I have beefed up the subfloor.

If you have one layer of 5/8" plywood installed and braced level with the floor joist. One layer of subfloor installed over this prep. Some 1/4" cement board installed with thiset and roofing nails over those two layers you have a tank. This prep as well not detailed in either the TCNA or TTMAC. Prep up the two in a mock up out in your garage - see which is better, which you think will last longer - The way I'm describing or the way the line drain makers suggest you build.

It would be easiest for me to tell you to install the flanged ACO drain or the Proline and sell it to you. I sell each of these drains. But what your trying to build is a complected barrier free shower and the look you are after requires a lot of effort.

If the linear drain company say you can do X,Y,Z ask them to tell you exactly the products you need - I.E. what manufacture and what SKU from them.

All that is required in Canada to pass building code is that you follow the manufactures recommendations - that's it. We redo showers like this all the time. The drain I'm installing at my buddies place is a Quick Drain USA Proline. We ripped it out of a job 10 months back because it was installed wrong (by another tile crew) and the client called me to inspect. I told them their shower was a do over.

I shy away of posting all my pictures online because it's so easy for someone to look at one of my jobs and go - "Oh. That's what you do!" When in fact that was only what could work for that specific job.

Call those setting material companies. Get all your duck is a row. Call me - you have my number.

JW

Jim, Talked to a guy who sells the Proline drain and he told me that a full Lacticrete lifetime warranty was in order for the entire shower if all their products were used with the Proline drain and that QuickDrain has approved the use of Lacticrete products with their drain. The guy also said that there would be no problem with me matching up this drain with the level of the finished floor. Not a complicated install.

Above you mentioned how hard my install was and how complicated it was. Am I missing something in the translation.

Still awaiting response from both Geoff and Eric.

**johnfrwhipple** · 01-29-2013, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Freddie

Jim, Talked to a guy who sells the Proline drain and he told me that a full Lacticrete lifetime warranty was in order for the entire shower if all their products were used with the Proline drain and that QuickDrain has approved the use of Lacticrete products with their drain. The guy also said that there would be no problem with me matching up this drain with the level of the finished floor. Not a complicated install.

Above you mentioned how hard my install was and how complicated it was. Am I missing something in the translation.

Still awaiting response from both Geoff and Eric.

Are you missing something? YES you are.

You are missing all the information I tried to share with you earlier. You are missing the specification Laticrete wants you to follow for their mortar. You are following the advice of a man selling you his drain. I like Josef. He is a friend of mine but he is wrong on this point.

You can use Hydro Ban with his drain - YES.
Laticrete will warranty the work - YES
But you can't hack out your subfloor and install the drain tight to the floor. That's crazy talk without extra prep work which I have been outlining above.
There is no TCNA Specification for Quick Pitch. There is no building code that says it can not be done. So who do you trust is the real question.

Fall back on deflection criteria. What does L/360 and L/720 mean to you? Do you really think you can achieve this by cutting a hole out in your subfloor??? Crazy Talk.

JW

**Freddie** · 01-29-2013, 09:05 AM

Not sure who this Josef is but you must have me mistaken with someone else. The guy I talked to carries the Proline at a retail outlet in Ottawa.

Yes I understand the deflection and would of course beef up the floor as much as I can. Right now my floor is good for L/720+ as it is. So If I just replace the floor I still have the same rating. If I have enough room I will add additional supportive flooring above the main 5/8" flooring. For the drain area, if I cut the floor I'll beef up the floor by adding additonal floor below that portion and probably the whole shower area.

This is my option B at this point. I've moved on to trying to use a single point drain in the middle of the shower with a curbless design.

**Freddie** · 01-31-2013, 09:00 AM

John,

I've taken your advice and contacted both the drain and mortar places and getting them to commit to anything, any product, any thickness required / approved, etc. is like pulling teeth. How have your progressed on this in the past?

**johnfrwhipple** · 02-03-2013, 09:46 AM

I have processed with my own private testing. I know how low I can take these materials and build above local code to ensure that my floors do not deflect to the point of causing membrane failure.

It is a joke that the linear drain companies do not say you can use "ABC thin-set". The detail of installing a Proline drain into a subfloor is a risky one. I build them different. It is so hard to outline the process for each install online.

You need to get to the root or base of each step.

Is your subfloor tillable? With the cut out? It should be before proceeding. How you get there is easy - you can go about it many ways.

If you are looking for easy. Cheap. Fast. Then follow the manufactures installations. But ask yourself this "If they will not tell you what products to use in an email, Why?" Could it be liability? Could it be that the procedure is not used by the setting material company? Could it be because the process is not recognized by the TNCA or TTMAC?

If your going to tile something - can you hit it with a hammer? Can you jump up and down on the floor?

The number one reason for tile failure is "Bond Breakers". If your subfloor is flexing at the drain connection you have a problem.

We use Simpson Strong Ties, 2"x6" blocking. 2"x4" blocking. Double plywood systems. Extra blocking. Cement board. All to install our Proline drains. Our ACO drains. None of this is listed in these companies installation instructions. I have done the calculations with my structural engineer - in his office. I have built many more with other structural engineers. I work with the city of North Vancouver, District of North Vancouver, City of Vancouver, City of Burnaby and we build these showers to local code and TTMAC specifications.

If I cut out the subfloor and dropped a drain in I would be worried about failing my structural engineering inspection and city framing inspection. There is a reason why these inspections happen after the plumbing and electrical systems are juiced up.

JW

**Freddie** · 02-03-2013, 10:40 AM

Own private testing...I'm not doing this as a business so for you that option is obvious for your reputation but I can't spend a year testing various setups and buying various drains for one install in my home.

Not looking for easy, cheap fast or I wouldn't even be on this board. You've been very helpful in pointing out items that I need to be concerned about and I think I'm fully aware of them now. More than a friend of mine who is a bathroom installer who does great looking stuff and has a good reputation who is oblivious to the word deflection, has never used many of the products that we've talked about. I guess he's been doing it the same way for 20 years with success so why change up things. But can't necessarily trust him as some advice on permits, etc. have not been correct in the least.

So now I know what needs to be done but how to get going on it is tough seeing that I can't get suppliers to say yes things work together. Might just have to wing it with the knowledge that I have and hope for the best. Not looking for anyone to be held liable for their advice; just looking for information on what they might do. Of course the final decision is mine.

**johnfrwhipple** · 02-03-2013, 05:28 PM

I have a few steps in this planning stage in my blog site. Have you done Step One? http://no-curb.blogspot.ca/2013/01/s...ee-shower.html

JW

**Freddie** · 02-07-2013, 11:50 AM

John, I am quite a bit further ahead than that; just haven't selected tiles yet. I think I've found a way to do this anyways.

Replace 5/8" OSB with 3/4" plywood throught the bathroom. On top of that place Ditra XL over the entire bathroom; laying heating wire in areas that I want within the Ditra XL. Use a QuickDrain Proline flanged drain mounted on top of the Ditra XL; of course Ditra and subfloor cut out to accomodate. I will also add additional supports, as many as I can, near the linear drain without interferring with plumbing, etc..

Waterproof shower up over top of QuickDrain waterproofing. Tile, add shower glass (sadly it'll have to be custom) and voila t'is done.

I will slope entire floor in shower and tub floor next to the shower from back to front; about a 3/4" difference over the 3' or so. Cut side glass on angle at bottom and then I'll have the curbless shower I need at both the door and the side of the shower. Haven't been able to figure out a way to tile the side of the shower slope if I don't slope the bathtub area as well.

Sound good? Anything to worry about or watch out for? Also, once I finalize the size can you quote me on a QuickDrain? You should be able to PM me on this or send me your email address so I can contact you in the next few days.

thanks,

**johnfrwhipple** · 02-08-2013, 07:19 AM

Hey Freddie.

I have decided to only sell the ACO linear drains going forward. I will not be selling anymore drains from Quick Drain USA. I made a promise to a client and am a man of my word. If my client gets taken care of I might reconsider my stand but until such time I am going to sell and promote only the linear drains from ACO.

I have installed loads of the Quick Drain USA product.

Cement Slabs.
Basements.
I-joists.
Timber framing.
Hybrid.
Side Outlet.
Over heating.

I have all these installations on file. If you want to see how I install the Proline you need to sign up for my Private Ideabooks and pictures. You can find out how on my blog site. Top right corner.

How I do my installs and how the manufactures recommend installs - are two different things. My way is better. My way is stronger. My way meets deflection criteria for a subfloor. I get paid to install drains and will be screwed if they leak. They get paid to sell drains. I'm an installer. They are a manufacture. It's different.

Your way (outlined above) might not work out so well. You need to follow TTMAC guidelines. Can you tell me where in the TTMAC guidelines that it says you can cut a slot out of your subfloor and drop a drain in??? With or without a little steel clip. The framing is not hard to beef up. It is possible to sneak a 2"x4" under the cut out and have the P-Trap roll around it.

My Ideabooks cover

firestopping
tile layout
custom cutting
custom sizing of spacers
cleaning
what to look out for

and on and on.

I'll also tell you what products I used.

What I love about the ACO drain is that it installs over any type of waterproofing system (ANSI 118.10) and a clamping drain.

I build my showers most times like a divot style. This is not covered in any online install page.

Good Luck - make sure you flood test your new shower.

JW

**Freddie** · 02-08-2013, 07:46 AM

Thx John,

I'll sign up for your private ideabook and pictures. I'd buy ACO but can't seem to get any info from them on exactly what the mimimum height above the subfloor needs to be given say an allocation of 3/8" for tile and thinset.

If you could help with this I'd look into ACO again.