Curbless Shower

[johnfrwhipple]

Looks like LED lighting where the edge of the glass is going to go. Nice touch.

You mention ABS clamping drain. Did that comes with the linear drain? Looks familiar to what I've seen that is part of the Quartz linear drain install.

That is a plain jane Watts clamping drain. I'm installing a recycled linear drain over top of it.

The ACO drain comes with a white PVC clamping drain and it has a compression collar for the tail piece of their linear drain channel body. Both the ACO PVC clamping drain and the Watts ABS clamping drain are approved drains. Both have cUPC engravings. Both meet Canadian standards.

When the inspector comes to check your work the first time is for the flood test. He/She might have been out prior to inspect the drainage pipes and inspect the 200 psi pressure test. Once the flood test is inspected your golden and you can complete the reno (assuming that the framing, electrical, low voltage, HVAC and Insulation inspections are in order).

I make it a habit now to print off the IAPMO Certificates for the drains I use and the waterproofing products. There is a high chance that your inspector has never seen one before.

JW

[Freddie]

The line drains from Schluter, Noble, ACO and Proline are all CSA approved.
JW

Just to clarify that when you say line drains you mean linear drains?

[johnfrwhipple]

Just to clarify that when you say line drains you mean linear drains?

Line Drain
Trench Drain
Gutter Drain
Linear Drain

They are all the same in my book.

Make sure any drain you buy has the cUPC or CSA mark on it. Otherwise make sure you can print off the IAPMO certificate or CSA Certificate. This is the paperwork and markings inspectors will be asking for.

JW

[johnfrwhipple]

Posted some of the temporary dam pictures back on the original curbless shower thread.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/show...l=1#post365547

JW

[Freddie]

Hi John,

Just been looking at the Noble linear drains and am impressed by the design of it. Seems to be quite easy to install and easy to connect to a noble membrane. Couple of questions:

1. They talk about a "full bed mortar installation" and a "thin-bed install". When would you use the full bed install method? I still got lots to learn on this.

2. Would you recommend this drain or is their a better one that you would recommend? Price of course is of concern but installation procedure and size will play a role.

Noble then ACO then Proline then Schluter??

Looking for any feedback on these that might help me select one over the other. Feel free to private message me if you prefer.

thx,

[johnfrwhipple]

Hi John,

Just been looking at the Noble linear drains and am impressed by the design of it. Seems to be quite easy to install and easy to connect to a noble membrane. Couple of questions:

1. They talk about a "full bed mortar installation" and a "thin-bed install". When would you use the full bed install method? I still got lots to learn on this.

2. Would you recommend this drain or is their a better one that you would recommend? Price of course is of concern but installation procedure and size will play a role.

Noble then ACO then Proline then Schluter??

Looking for any feedback on these that might help me select one over the other. Feel free to private message me if you prefer.

thx,

One of the smartest people I know in this business is Eric from Noble Company. You can reach him here Eric Edelmayer <eric@noblecompany.com> and gets some more information on his linear drain. I have yet to install one of the Noble Drains but have sold a few and help a few online clients install them.

My favourite linear drain these days is the ACO drain. Not the flanged version ( I dislike this version ) but the plain edge design. I have trouble shot, installed, inspected and reviewed these drains every which way but sideways and the drain that I get the least amount of call backs on is the ACO. With the ACO you can use any waterproofing system you want.

Your curbless shower installation is tricky and like I mentioned before it's hard to type a few paragraphs and cover all the bases. Out in Ottawa you can hook up with Geoff Emerson <gemerson@aco-online.ca> - tell him John gave you his email. Geoff works closely with many crews and suppliers out there and he can for sure point you in the right direction. The ACO product is German Made and Electropolished. I would also say it's the easiest to clean of the lot.

Regardless of the drain you pick you will struggle to keep any of the setting material companies happy.

Try calling Ardex - email Robert Russell and ask for recommendations for thin and thick bed installs. Robert Bob Russell Ardex <Robert.Russell@ArdexAmericas.com>

Once you figure out the thickness requirements of each type of setting material you can start to work the project out backwards.

Last year I was selling Proline Drains, ACO Drains, Noble Drains and a few others but the shear volume of emails and phone calls made each day counter productive. MOst times when I sell an ACO drain all I get is a thank you.

I have been hanging onto my first Schluter Line drain for quite some time. I need to install a few of them to give a good review of the process but now that I've switched to Ardex as my preferred setting material a series of Kerdi installs is on the horizon.

ACO launched a new point drain which is pretty and I'm going to showcasing these over the coming months.

Here is a peak at this new premium point drain.



And yes that is a pool table as a backdrop!!! LOL

JW

[Freddie]

Nice looking point drains.

I'll contact the guy from ACO this week but in looking at their drains, in terms of vertical space requirements, there is a requirement for 1.5" of mortar and tile above the membrane and the membrane is approx. 1" from the floor so 2.5" from the floor in total which is not gonna work for me.

Noble drain to me might work. I'll contact the Noble guy as well. Of course I'll mention to both that you recommended that I call you.

[Freddie]

Hi John,

Just looked at QuickDrain Proline Drain. Looks to me that the drain body sits on the floor and then you just tile up from there. To me that would mean the top of the drain is about 1/2" above the floor rather than 2.5" with the ACO drain. I could then easily use this drain. Am I missing something here?

[johnfrwhipple]

Freddie there is a big difference between what the TCNA or TTMAC stays is OK and what the manufactures say. These drains are to new for any of them to have an endorsed system. The process takes about five years before they get a specification done and published.

Quick Drain says you can cut through the subfloor and sit there drain down. Schluter says that. ACO says that. You can if you want to follow their instructions but if your looking up stats from the TCNA or TTMAC you will not find this info. You will also not find a setting material company that will agree with them.

I've done this with all of them but only after I have beefed up the subfloor.

If you have one layer of 5/8" plywood installed and braced level with the floor joist. One layer of subfloor installed over this prep. Some 1/4" cement board installed with thiset and roofing nails over those two layers you have a tank. This prep as well not detailed in either the TCNA or TTMAC. Prep up the two in a mock up out in your garage - see which is better, which you think will last longer - The way I'm describing or the way the line drain makers suggest you build.

Deflection is your enemy here in these subfloor. To much movement and the waterproofing will fail.

To repeat what I said earlier Freddie it is to hard to type this out for you play by play. You need to understand the theory of what you need to achieve and then go about making it happen.

It would be easiest for me to tell you to install the flanged ACO drain or the Proline and sell it to you. I sell each of these drains. But what your trying to build is a complected barrier free shower and the look you are after requires a lot of effort.

We started tiling the job out in Coquitlam. Once it's done I'll send you some pictures to let you know where my grades change. I need to cut angle cuts in multiple floor tiles to install my large format tile and make this shower and barrier free bathroom work and have a safety net.

I'm often told I over build stuff. Or that is not really needed. Last week a tiler who was shopping at my tile supply store told me if everyone built like me there would be no work for us in a few years. The mentality of so many trades is like this. Planned obsolescence. If the linear drain company say you can do X,Y,Z ask them to tell you exactly the products you need - I.E. what manufacture and what SKU from them. Then call that manufacture and ask them if it's OK to use it at that level or in that application. Then check the TTMAC and see if this is outlined. You will find you enter a loop of half information.

All that is required in Canada to pass building code is that you follow the manufactures recommendations - that's it. We redo showers like this all the time. The drain I'm installing at my buddies place is a Quick Drain USA Proline. We ripped it out of a job 10 months back because it was installed wrong (by another tile crew) and the client called me to inspect. I told them their shower was a do over.

I shy away of posting all my pictures online because it's so easy for someone to look at one of my jobs and go - "Oh. That's what you do!" When in fact that was only what could work for that specific job.

You are allowed to tile over 5/8" plywood that has 1/4" concrete board installed over top. Fact. Approved by both the TTMAC and TCNA. So if the joist bay in which your linear drain is being installed has this and you then install a bonded membrane like Noble Deck or Noble Seal TS that is designed to be bonded and directly tiled over top of as well as working with a clamping drain where is this 1.5" build up you speak of? You are assuming that a rubber liner is need with these clamping drains. That would be wrong.

You could install the Kerdi Line drain there but with their silly styrofoam collar have issues. But what if you box out the floor joist bay and drop it down 1.5"? How do your number look now?

Have you decided on a setting material company? Have you called them. In the end if something goes wrong with the install if you have not followed their instructions who is going to come to your rescue? If you listen to the drain company telling you OK and the job fails because the setting materials products are not designed for this - your screwed.

I've been trying to bring awareness to this for years. So few listen. It's not an easy build your trying to achieve.

Call Eric at Noble. I'm sure he can tell you how to recess his drain below the subfloor grade.

Call Geoff out in Ontario. He is the key rep fro ACO.

Get a rep out to your house and ask them directly - here you might be forced to work with Schluter since the other drain companies do not have many reps to my knowledge.

Call those setting material companies. Get all your duck is a row. Call me - you have my number.

JW

[Freddie]

I will make some calls and did into this a bit more. Addressing your comment:

....where is this 1.5" build up you speak of?

http://www.quartzbyaco.com/sites/default/files/Plain%20Edge%20Detail.pdf

See note 4

[johnfrwhipple]

Freddie that detail is for a CPE or rubber membrane. Not for a bonded membrane. Ask Geoff about bonded membranes.

JW

[johnfrwhipple]

Freddie here is a peak at a curbless shower we wrapped up in September. I had not had a chance to go see it finished until just yesterday.

The designer wanted a linear drain on this job and I talked her and the homeowner out of it. Some times a regular drain works best.

This drain is a Sioux Chief and purchased online at Noble Company's Online store. I had three shipped out to me and have not been able to keep stock of these pretty point drains.








The entire bathroom is a wet room - if the toilet overflows or sink shutoffs go the bathroom will drain. This client is in the Tile industry and was thrilled with the end result. Who would not want to walk into a white marble shower every day. We did test the tile and after a soak test found the tile to be of good quality. Always soak test your natural stone tile....

On this job I sent down one of my best setters and my apprentice and I did all the prep work. Just getting this shower ready for tile took over three weeks. The floor is heated completely and the only thing we where not allowed to do was have a second towel warmer outside the shower entrance. The electrical inspector shut down that design element and would not allow it.

The home is so historic and one of Vancouver's Historical Homes on the West Side.

JW

[Freddie]

Nice job and beautiful tile.

[jadnashua]

My inspector allowed an electric towel warmer just outside the tub/shower as long as it was wired directly into a GFCI. I have mine on a separate GFCI CB. I have it wired to a Lutron timer with clock. This also has an override, but only will keep it on through the next 15-minute segment.

[johnfrwhipple]

My inspector allowed an electric towel warmer just outside the tub/shower as long as it was wired directly into a GFCI. I have mine on a separate GFCI CB. I have it wired to a Lutron timer with clock. This also has an override, but only will keep it on through the next 15-minute segment.

Jim your electrical code is much less strict state side. This job got failed in planning by the electrical inspector. I had to go down to city hall and push some buttons if you know what I mean. In the end the electrical inspector had though that there would be no glass panel and was worried about switches being to close to the over spray. We showed him a three d drawing and insured him at final inspection this was not the case.

I've noticed that many photo's online show switch locations near shower entrances and tubs. Is this common practice in the US. Seams so wreckless to me.

JW