Curbless Shower

[Freddie]

Lip at linear drain.

This lip is located about 6-8" from the shower's bathroom entry door. To prevent water from sneaking along the edge the drain was installed before the wall tile and brought right to the back wall. Then the tile notched into the drain base. The Schluter profile is set higher than the drain and works well at blocking water from sneaking out. The linear strainer works well bring the water flow into the drain. Other drain styles can offer up a little room for water to skirt over them.


Bit of a trench drain version of a linear drain?

Looks like this is an infinity drain. Did you have to modify the top grate's length to accommodate the wall tile entrance into the end of the drain channel? Otherwise I guess you could just install a shorter drain and angle the end tiles as you would any other mid-floor linear drain.

[Freddie]

John,

Looking at my situation, 5/8" flooring and 1" of clearance from their to the threshold of the bathroom leaves me at most 1 5/8" from top of floor to threshold if I lower the flooring in the shower area to be flush with the top of the joists below. And maybe, just maybe I could squeeze and additional 1/4 to 1/2" depending if I try to lower the floor even more between the joist right where the drain is; in essence a step down from bathroom floor to shower floor and then to drain level floor.

Looking at various linear and non linear drains, it seems you need pretty close to those dimensions just to get to the top of the installed drain. Correct?

This for certain would then mean a curb on the non-door side of the shower, or the side glass would be 3/4" shorter at the back wall of the 3' deep shower which I'm not so sure will look all that great and then the glass wall then functions as the curb.

Assuming I put the drain at the door without curb at the door , then I'll have to also deal with some additional means to help prevent water overshoots of the drain and water that runs down the door from going to far into the rest of the bathroom. All these measures, and thanks again for some suggestions and ideas on that, would mean an additonal height requirement above the drain be that a 1/8" rise of tile above top of drain at drain plus some slope on door side of the drain (be that just inside the shower or outside the shower). Based on previously mentioned 5/8" max water height above drain even when not blocked, that could mean some wet area outside the door for at least 2' (at 1/2" / ft slope, more at 1/4"). Could lead to having water reaching out from the shower to almost the toilet and that would not be good.

Don't see how the use of a linear drain will work properly given my height restrictions without using a curb at the door. Have I missed something here or is there a product that could work within these constraints?

[johnfrwhipple]

Lip at linear drain.

This lip is located about 6-8" from the shower's bathroom entry door. To prevent water from sneaking along the edge the drain was installed before the wall tile and brought right to the back wall. Then the tile notched into the drain base. The Schluter profile is set higher than the drain and works well at blocking water from sneaking out. The linear strainer works well bring the water flow into the drain. Other drain styles can offer up a little room for water to skirt over them.


Bit of a trench drain version of a linear drain?

Looks like this is an infinity drain. Did you have to modify the top grate's length to accommodate the wall tile entrance into the end of the drain channel? Otherwise I guess you could just install a shorter drain and angle the end tiles as you would any other mid-floor linear drain.

That is not an Infinity Drain. That one is from My Shower Grate Shop. My last order had two of three strainers bowed and after a month or so of waiting I'm guessing they are not sending replacements. This has been a real piss off for me. I have since dropped this line (My Shower Grate Shop) of linear drains from our recommendation list.

JW

[johnfrwhipple]

Looking at my situation, 5/8" flooring and 1" of clearance from their to the threshold of the bathroom leaves me at most 1 5/8" from top of floor to threshold if I lower the flooring in the shower area to be flush with the top of the joists below. And maybe, just maybe I could squeeze and additional 1/4 to 1/2" depending if I try to lower the floor even more between the joist right where the drain is; in essence a step down from bathroom floor to shower floor and then to drain level floor.

OK. Here you are off track a bit. Lowering the flooring to the level of the floor joists is only a second layer not the primary. You gain nothing here but added strength in the sub floor.

How large are your tiles? Sometimes a linear drain helps with a curbless shower. If you look at the marketing shots and many builds online you will see countless examples of what you want to build. Will it work? Maybe. Would I build it for you? Nope.

Looking at various linear and non linear drains, it seems you need pretty close to those dimensions just to get to the top of the installed drain. Correct?

If you look at the picture on the bottom this is exactly what you want. The lip is used as the safety net. In an install like this you have no room for error. The building codes will not stop you from building this shower. If it works or does not work you will still be given permission to build it. If however you pull permits and the inspectors fires up the shower and water pours out the shower you will not get a final approval.

5/8" drop is more important for smaller point drains - most linear drains are higher flow rates like the ACO and Proline models. I would imagine the Kerdi Line drain is a higher flow rate as well.


This for certain would then mean a curb on the non-door side of the shower, or the side glass would be 3/4" shorter at the back wall of the 3' deep shower which I'm not so sure will look all that great and then the glass wall then functions as the curb.


Have you seen the low curb showers we build. We the planning gets thick and clients start asking how much this extra work will cost many like the low curb shower. A 2" curb is perfect and not hard to step over at all.


Assuming I put the drain at the door without curb at the door , then I'll have to also deal with some additional means to help prevent water overshoots of the drain and water that runs down the door from going to far into the rest of the bathroom. All these measures, and thanks again for some suggestions and ideas on that, would mean an additonal height requirement above the drain be that a 1/8" rise of tile above top of drain at drain plus some slope on door side of the drain (be that just inside the shower or outside the shower). Based on previously mentioned 5/8" max water height above drain even when not blocked, that could mean some wet area outside the door for at least 2' (at 1/2" / ft slope, more at 1/4"). Could lead to having water reaching out from the shower to almost the toilet and that would not be good.

A rise of 5/8" of water is scene with poor flow rates. I have had a few air locks with the tile top point drains from Luxe and My Shower Grate Shop and never with a metal strainer with holes. If a shower head hits the drain location we have measure rises in water levels on these projects as well.

On a linear drain install with a tile top version we measured a 1/2" rise from drain top to water level as the water tried to fight it's way down through the hair build up on the drain.

This is why we like the safety net. You might clean it. Your wife might. But will your son be watching. Your Mom???



Don't see how the use of a linear drain will work properly given my height restrictions without using a curb at the door. Have I missed something here or is there a product that could work within these constraints?

Again, this install is the most scary of all jobs we do. I will not build them unless I can do all my extra work. I have this exact set up your requesting on the go as we speak at my buddies place. I'll snap a few pictures and show you how I plan to pul it off.

How about a point drain in the center and a little framing work to beef up the sub floor.

Do you really need the floor tile to match the hardwood? This request drives me crazy from designers and builders a like. Sure Ditra is approved for this but if it was my build we would be installing 1/2" or 5/8" plywood, then heating WIRE (no mat), a screed mortar scratch coat with thin-set slurry bond coat, then Ditra and then tile. Then I would build you a custom transition to the hallway.

What is the span of the floor joists? What is the tile type? Stone? Do you understand deflection? What is the difference between L/360 and L/720? If you can not answer this then do some more research on the subject. It's crazy talk to align floor heights at the expense of proper tile preparation.

JW

This barrier free shower has a 2" curb to get into the bathroom. I worked 5 hours on the transition and is one of the most praised items the client tells me when people visit.

There is a big difference between a contractor buying you a $5.00 transition from Home Depot and a contractor milling you up a perfect fit for the space. There is also a big difference in price from $30.00 installed to $550.00 - but you get what you pay for.....

[Freddie]

Thanks John. Lots to think about. I'd appreciate any pictures you could provide from your buddies place.

Yes, deflection, support, slope, etc., all familiar to me as my real job was as a mechanical engineer for 20+ years. I've redone my deck that has now been solidly standing for 15 years, finished off my entire basement including some major plumbing changes below the concrete basement floor, completely reno'd our kitchen last year, and many other projects. All look very professional. I hire pro's when I need to for certain inspection approvals, for speed in a tight timeline, or when I think it is a bit over my head or something I've not done before that I think has a long learning curve. I'm basically at the design stage and gaining information to see if I can do it and also if I can't I have enough knowledge to ensure the work of the pro's is done correctly or at least to be able to ask a few intelligent questions.

For me, Electrical I just don't touch if it means running new wires, etc.. It has to be inspected, I'm not as aware of the codes for it that seem to change all the time so I always hire an electrician for that part. More efficient for me to do it that way. Most of the plumbing changes I do myself as my background was in water filtration equipment design and manufacture. Depending of the project I sometimes hire a plumber. For the rest I've taught myself and had no problems passing inpsections for framing, insulation/ vapour barrier, final approvals. I've done drywall (small jobs only, I'm no expert here but getting better), flooring, trim work, etc.. So I know my capabilities and when the work is above them.

Haven't done much tiling except for a backsplash with rather large tiles in the kitchen so that may be something that a pro could do for me in a couple of days and I do have a friend that does that for a living so a few pizzas and some cold ones and long weekend and it could get done but I'll decide that later on.

My first concern is to get the plumbing and electrical changes done so that I can close off the floor, walls and ceiling.

[jadnashua]

FWIW, since I put pex hydronic heat in my bathroom embedded in slc, the bathroom floor is quite a bit higher than the rooms outside. I had my granite fabricator make me some custom thresholds with a taper (set like a big tile at the entry) to make the entry acceptable. There are pre-made ramps available if you have carpeting outside the bathroom that will take up the difference, but if wood, then custom milling is probably the best way to go.

[Freddie]

Actually the bathroom floor is off the master bedroom which currently has carpets but...as soon as the bathroom is done I will be ripping up the bedroom carpet so I have options. Hallway has carpeting at 3/4" or a slight bit higher so would be perfect match for hardwood in the bedroom or new carpeting. At 1" height in the bathroom, that is what was there, no need for a ramp of any type; it'll just be a slight 1/4" lip which is there now and is not a problem at all. This is what I'm aiming for right now. If I have to have a slight ramp at the entrance to bathroom for the ability to have a curbless entry to the shower then that's a tradeoff I'll have to decide that if it is worth it or not...depending on how high the ramp has to be.

[Freddie]

Haven't looked at deflection at all yet for the majority of the bathroom as nothing is really changing yet drastically. Current joists are 2 x 10, 12' span, 24" OC.

Only changes in bathroom are that a Victoria and Albert IOS tub will replace a jacuzzi tub that we had. So max 250 lbs of additional water there. New tub is about 100 lbs heavier than old tub but old tub also had pump and motor and full framing built around the tub so I'd call that even.

Old shower is removed and replaced with new shower. Except for added weight on mud bed, if I go that way, don't see really any change there in total weight.

[jadnashua]

Your deflection could be marginal for ceramic and is definately unsuitable for natural stone tile. It depends on the species of wood the joists are made of - if it is southern yellow pin or douglas fir, you're just above the minimums. If it is some other species, you should not tile it without beefing things up. This assumes that the joists are in good shape, not a lot of knots, no notches for plumbing or wiring, and to code holes for wiring and plumbing. Since your installation is marginal, anything not to code could put your joists below the minimum for a reliable tiled floor.

24"oc means that between joist deflection is a problem, too. You'd want some significant subflooring to ensure that deflection is in spec as well.

[Freddie]

Sorry Jim,
Saw 2 lines of screws on the floor and measured 24". Never occurred to me that it would be 12". They are actually 12" apart. What was ripped up was marble composite tiles that had been on the floor since 1989. No cracks or any problems in that time and this bathroom is used every day. The tile also had a 1/2" sublfoor on top of the 5/8" OSB.

[jadnashua]

12"oc verses 24"oc bumps the deflection to L/744 from L/372 or so...a BIG difference. Natural stone should be above L/720, and yours does if the species is SYP or DF and in good condition. It could still be marginal for natural stone if it is some other wood species.

[Freddie]

The wood is in great condition from what I can see. House was brand new in 1989 and I see no signs of warping or excessive holes, etc.. There's been no changes to the house in this area since we moved in and we are the original owners. Wood is kiln-dried SPF (spruce pine fir). So should be fine. These are pretty good houses in a nice neighbourhood and most of the city is built by this home builder. From what I've seen in all my projects in this house, everything was built properly. I've seen no shortcuts or lazy workers remnants yet.

But it is good to know that I can put down some natural stone if I want.

thanks,

[johnfrwhipple]

Actually the bathroom floor is off the master bedroom which currently has carpets but...as soon as the bathroom is done I will be ripping up the bedroom carpet so I have options. Hallway has carpeting at 3/4" or a slight bit higher so would be perfect match for hardwood in the bedroom or new carpeting. At 1" height in the bathroom, that is what was there, no need for a ramp of any type; it'll just be a slight 1/4" lip which is there now and is not a problem at all. This is what I'm aiming for right now. If I have to have a slight ramp at the entrance to bathroom for the ability to have a curbless entry to the shower then that's a tradeoff I'll have to decide that if it is worth it or not...depending on how high the ramp has to be.

CArpet outside the bathroom is dream. You can slightly shim under the carpet pad to gain some elevation. Door skin works well for this and an edger for sanding. With a couple of plys you can raise the floor outside the bathroom a little. If you strip the carpet back completely you can do even a better job with a little thin-set and mortar mix.

I tried cheating my daughters bathroom entry this way and over did it somewhat. I tried gaining a 1/4" over 10" and this shows if your looking for it. No one I know has noticed but I see it. On one job we raised the bedroom carpet about 3/8" over 8'. This was dream job since there was a walk through closet to enter the bathroom and no one could feel the elevation gain.

Do what's right for the tile work and deal with the transition which ever way looks and functions best.

JW

[Freddie]

Hi John,

Did a bit more research on ACO linear drains at exit and found the flowrate specs for the various drains and heads of water. Looks like minimum of 6 gpm on 36" shower drain with no head and around 8.5 gpm with 0.2" of head. So I would think with only 2 shower heads at 2.5 gpm there should be no problem especially if you lower the linear drain a bit below the tile level as you mentioned previously and then maybe a bit of dry side slope. I will probably try to fit in a wider shower stall, even if it is a few inches more say to fit in the roughly 40" drain. That'll also give me an additional 10% of flow capacity.

Have you had any better success with any specific grate design in applications like this? They all seem to look good and I do like the lit drain option if it's not too expensive an option.

[johnfrwhipple]

Hi John,

Did a bit more research on ACO linear drains at exit and found the flowrate specs for the various drains and heads of water. Looks like minimum of 6 gpm on 36" shower drain with no head and around 8.5 gpm with 0.2" of head. So I would think with only 2 shower heads at 2.5 gpm there should be no problem especially if you lower the linear drain a bit below the tile level as you mentioned previously and then maybe a bit of dry side slope. I will probably try to fit in a wider shower stall, even if it is a few inches more say to fit in the roughly 40" drain. That'll also give me an additional 10% of flow capacity.

Have you had any better success with any specific grate design in applications like this? They all seem to look good and I do like the lit drain option if it's not too expensive an option.

Freddie ACO has a great selection of grill styles. In an entry scenario you may entertain the idea of using a 1200mm plain edge channel body cut to fit and a 1000mm linear grate set with a 3-5mm gap left and right from the finished wall and floor tile. You could incorporate a design similar to the one I show above.

I'm not a huge fan of the flanged ACO drain and prefer working with a three piece clamping drain and plain edge channel body installed over top. Grading for this type of an instal is tricky, but so far we have managed to recess all these drains between joists or over top of them. The job above (White wall tile) had a bearing wall directly below the drain location so we could cut a 2" dado in the joist tops with out taking away from the structure. Work like this needs approval from the city so before doing any structure changes get permission from the structaral engineer on the job and the city.

Most times a little back framing between floor joist can lower the subfloor in this section. Getting a waterproofing product to conform to this type of set up will push you into premium membranes like the ones I use from Noble Company. I like the inside and outside corners and the thickness of the Noble Seal, Noble Flashing or Noble Deck products.

1" sheathing cut to fit between two floor joists is a great place to start. We use this or a double 5/8" ply and reinforce that with 2"x4" or 2"x6" pinned along the floor joist. In all these curbless shower builds we double down on the sheathing so we are working above a double 5/8" ply layer. It's lots of work but creates a strong floor that resists deflection. Key I think in maintaining thin levels of screeding and tile setting materials.

Do you have a copy of the TTMAC Tile Specifications? The new edition just came out and in it is so many ways of preparing a subfloor for tile. Ditra, Ditra XL, Wedi, Cement Board and on and on. The key to any good tile install is to follow a specification method and ensure that the materials used can go from 0 - 1/4" or 1/4" to 1".

Many of our projects involve floor heat. Are you heating this space as well? When heating a space we prep for tile (I.E. Double plywood, cement board) and then lay the cable heat. When we cover the heat we screed the floor and prepare all our grades. Then waterproofing. Then Flood Test.


Can you post a room layout and overlay the floor joist locations? Maybe we can find a simple solution for your renovation.

This should work on paper before you start ordering drains and materials.

I didn't get any pictures of my buddy's place since we where busy flying the tile up, but I will send you some pictures. It's a fun barrier free job that I'm using a recycled linear drain (pulled from a failed instal we fixed) and I'm going to attempt to light it! lol Still haven't figured that step out yet.

The ACO light kit is easy to install into the drain grate put not designed I think for the linear grate.

JW