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Thread: Let it mellow

  1. #16
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Bill, on your test, just to be clear, it may well rise a little bit above the "settle level" and then begin to drain down to that level. So it's not the point at which the bowl water stops rising; it's the level to which the bowl water settles after you leave it a bit after filling to a little higher than that level.

  2. #17
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjcandee View Post
    Bill, on your test, just to be clear, it may well rise a little bit above the "settle level" and then begin to drain down to that level. So it's not the point at which the bowl water stops rising; it's the level to which the bowl water settles after you leave it a bit after filling to a little higher than that level.
    If the water goes over into the drain, why would it take time to settle? It gets push over, it gets pushed over. I will try that later.

    I just made a deposit of solids and the bowl WL must have raised over an inch. Of course, I didn't wait to flush!
    Bill
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  3. #18
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjcandee View Post
    Bill, on your test, just to be clear, it may well rise a little bit above the "settle level" and then begin to drain down to that level. So it's not the point at which the bowl water stops rising; it's the level to which the bowl water settles after you leave it a bit after filling to a little higher than that level.
    Just added 32oz to the bowl which raised the WL about 1/2" measured in the center. After 30 minutes the WL did drop but only about 3/32". I may have reached its max level. This level is higher than I had seen with my first tank.
    Bill
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  4. #19
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    A well-tuned, designed, toilet fills the bowl just to the point of overflow when the tank reaches full. Older toilets tended to dump much more water into the bowl, essentially wasting it. If the bowl isn't full when you start the flush, your flush will NOT be as powerful as when the bowl is full to start with. Instead of immediately starting to push the water out, some of it must fill the bowl the rest of the way first, and that affects the overall flushing efficiency. This is why it is important when trying to minimize water use to use the correct parts, properly installed - not all aftermarket parts will achieve good results while simultaneously minimizing water use. You would not notice the bowl was being overfilled, but you may notice it doesn't flush well if it isn't full to start the flush, and definately will notice if the level is very far from the design level.

    Now, some toilets used in other parts of the world have nearly no water spot and the waste sits there until you flush. People here tend to not like them, and thus there's little market for them, but they are designed differently than ours.

    If you've displaced all or most of the lighter water in the bowl with urine, and wait to flush, adding a little bit can put concentrated urine trickling down the drain. Only when you flush do you cleanse that area. That slow trickle of undiluted urine can eat through pipes, as shown in the picture Terry posted as well as leave crystalline deposits that do not get flushed away. This is real, not theoretical.
    Jim DeBruycker
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  5. #20
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    A well-tuned, designed, toilet fills the bowl just to the point of overflow when the tank reaches full. Older toilets tended to dump much more water into the bowl, essentially wasting it. If the bowl isn't full when you start the flush, your flush will NOT be as powerful as when the bowl is full to start with. Instead of immediately starting to push the water out, some of it must fill the bowl the rest of the way first, and that affects the overall flushing efficiency. This is why it is important when trying to minimize water use to use the correct parts, properly installed - not all aftermarket parts will achieve good results while simultaneously minimizing water use. You would not notice the bowl was being overfilled, but you may notice it doesn't flush well if it isn't full to start the flush, and definately will notice if the level is very far from the design level.

    Now, some toilets used in other parts of the world have nearly no water spot and the waste sits there until you flush. People here tend to not like them, and thus there's little market for them, but they are designed differently than ours.

    If you've displaced all or most of the lighter water in the bowl with urine, and wait to flush, adding a little bit can put concentrated urine trickling down the drain. Only when you flush do you cleanse that area. That slow trickle of undiluted urine can eat through pipes, as shown in the picture Terry posted as well as leave crystalline deposits that do not get flushed away. This is real, not theoretical.
    I flushed, added around 40oz to the bowl, left home for four hours, the level lowered to that same point again so that must be the overflow point.

    Now if well tuned, properly designed toilet fills the bowl to the point of overflow, I wonder what happens as your dumping solids to the bowl? Are you getting a concentrate of whatever into the drain till you flush? If a toilet fills the bowl to less than the overflow point, you have room for solids, etc.

    I like to get an unbiased test of a Toto using this same procedure just to see how full the bowl is.

    I'll have to look but I'm unsure if WL in the bowl reaches that overflow point between flushes.
    Bill
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  6. #21
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    A Toto with the older Unifit adapter (they've added some noise insulation to the newer ones I've been told) means, if you listen carefully, you can hear water draining out whenever you put something in - doesn't matter whether it's liquids or solids.

    It's not what's in the bowl when you get ready to flush, it's the fact that it must be full so the flush action can start things going out as soon as you start. WHen you have to fill the bowl first, it just doesn't work as well and you may end up leaving something behind.
    Jim DeBruycker
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  7. #22
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    It's not what's in the bowl when you get ready to flush, it's the fact that it must be full so the flush action can start things going out as soon as you start. WHen you have to fill the bowl first, it just doesn't work as well and you may end up leaving so mething behind.
    If the bowl is already full and you add something, it has to force something out which is actually what you stated earlier. If it's already low and you add something, it raises the WL. If you have bucket of water filled to the brim, doesn't putting your arm into make it overflow?

    That's what I stated earlier, when I urinate without flushing the WL increases. If agree that if I urinate enough, it fill overflow into the drain but I'm unsure if that's the case.

    If a Toto's bowl is full to the overflow point that would be more of an issue than my AS Cadet 3.
    Bill
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  8. #23
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    With your old toilet and the flush valve not stopping, a constant low volume of water down the drain would dilute anything there. Note, the pipe Terry showed was copper. PVC, ABS, and to an extent CI won't show as much reaction to the weak acid. And, if you do enough full flushes before major deposits build up, you probably won't have that issue of salt deposits. That's why a waterless toilet is such an issue...the only thing that actually goes down the drain is urine with essentially no dilution or water to dilute things. If you don't flush for awhile, the urine becomes more and more concentrated, and at some point, it can become a major issue. Obviously, not always - the plumber's tend to only see the extreme cases when it causes damage.
    Jim DeBruycker
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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  9. #24
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    With your old toilet and the flush valve not stopping, a constant low volume of water down the drain would dilute anything there. Note, the pipe Terry showed was copper. PVC, ABS, and to an extent CI won't show as much reaction to the weak acid. And, if you do enough full flushes before major deposits build up, you probably won't have that issue of salt deposits. That's why a waterless toilet is such an issue...the only thing that actually goes down the drain is urine with essentially no dilution or water to dilute things. If you don't flush for awhile, the urine becomes more and more concentrated, and at some point, it can become a major issue. Obviously, not always - the plumber's tend to only see the extreme cases when it causes damage.
    That was my old toilet but we were talking about WL at the full or less than that, adding solids/liquids and what happens then with my new AS Cadet 3.
    Bill
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  10. #25
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wptski View Post
    I ask you the same question, why I had no build up after eight years?
    During the time this toilet was overflowing, it was constantly washing the line...there would be no buildup of salts since things were being diluted. How long ago did you replace it?

    Since you replaced it, if it is truly not being properly filled, a use or two overnight may not put anything over the weir, and you might not experience a buildup. If it was working as most are designed, it would be full, and anything you added would force some down the drain.
    Jim DeBruycker
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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  11. #26
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wptski View Post
    After 30 minutes the WL did drop but only about 3/32".
    Okay, so your bowl isn't fully-refilling after you flush. You have now discovered the proper bowl refill level.

    Mark it with a pencil. If you had a fill valve with an adjustable refill percentage (which this toilet doesn't), you would adjust that slightly. Since you don't, as the toilet comes with a valve with a fixed refill percentage, then the water level in the tank is set too low, assuming everything else is correct. Nudge the tank water level up slightly, which will prolong the refill time slightly, which will give you a properly-filled bowl. The thing should shut off when the refill water reliably hits your pencil mark.

    At least that's how it is supposed to work.

  12. #27
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    During the time this toilet was overflowing, it was constantly washing the line...there would be no buildup of salts since things were being diluted. How long ago did you replace it?

    Since you replaced it, if it is truly not being properly filled, a use or two overnight may not put anything over the weir, and you might not experience a buildup. If it was working as most are designed, it would be full, and anything you added would force some down the drain.
    Anyone who uses the Mellow Yellow theory is better off with a toilet that doesn't fill the bowl to the overflow point which causes anything added down the drain then. I have no problem with flushing solids so far.
    Bill
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  13. #28
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjcandee View Post
    Okay, so your bowl isn't fully-refilling after you flush. You have now discovered the proper bowl refill level.

    Mark it with a pencil. If you had a fill valve with an adjustable refill percentage (which this toilet doesn't), you would adjust that slightly. Since you don't, as the toilet comes with a valve with a fixed refill percentage, then the water level in the tank is set too low, assuming everything else is correct. Nudge the tank water level up slightly, which will prolong the refill time slightly, which will give you a properly-filled bowl. The thing should shut off when the refill water reliably hits your pencil mark.

    At least that's how it is supposed to work.
    Does Toto or any other manufacturer produce fill valves? If not, why do you say, this toilet? How many toilets come with adjustable fill rates?

    If I adjust the tank WL for a full bowl then I'm back to going around in circles with "jadnashua". Using the Mellow Yellow Theory, one is better off with a lower bowl WL.
    Bill
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  14. #29
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wptski View Post
    Does Toto or any other manufacturer produce fill valves? If not, why do you say, this toilet? How many toilets come with adjustable fill rates?

    If I adjust the tank WL for a full bowl then I'm back to going around in circles with "jadnashua". Using the Mellow Yellow Theory, one is better off with a lower bowl WL.
    You seem to be missing the point that for a toilet to flush, it must first be filled. If it isn't full when you try to flush, it will not flush as well as it could. Doesn't mean it won't flush everything down, but that it won't do it as well as if it were full. People on here regularly complain their toilet doesn't flush properly, and a common answer is that the bowl is not full (often because the refill tube is misplaced, but adjustments are also a factor).

    Toto doesn't make their fill valves, at least in the USA, they are made for them by Korky. Toto's replacement (universal) fill valve IS adjustable so it can allow them to stock one repair part, but that almost identical valve is also available from Korky.

    I personally, don't care if you flush your toilet after use, unless I was a regular visitor to your home, and that's not likely. Lot's of people have different opinions, and I don't have a problem with that...just pointing out why it may not be a great idea. Your home, your choice.
    Jim DeBruycker
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  15. #30
    Retired Machine Repairman wptski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua View Post
    You seem to be missing the point that for a toilet to flush, it must first be filled. If it isn't full when you try to flush, it will not flush as well as it could. Doesn't mean it won't flush everything down, but that it won't do it as well as if it were full. People on here regularly complain their toilet doesn't flush properly, and a common answer is that the bowl is not full (often because the refill tube is misplaced, but adjustments are also a factor).

    Toto doesn't make their fill valves, at least in the USA, they are made for them by Korky. Toto's replacement (universal) fill valve IS adjustable so it can allow them to stock one repair part, but that almost identical valve is also available from Korky.

    I personally, don't care if you flush your toilet after use, unless I was a regular visitor to your home, and that's not likely. Lot's of people have different opinions, and I don't have a problem with that...just pointing out why it may not be a great idea. Your home, your choice.
    You seem to be missing the point that if you add anything to the bowl it will raise the WL. If my WL is low, adding solids which if anything can be a problem to flush will naturally raise the WL closer to full and a better flushing action by your description.

    As long as I don't postpone flushing to at/past the overflow point, I don't see a problem. I do have a good sense of smell and flush every time when I have visitors.
    Bill
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