Questions to answer before buying

**snowlion** · 11-06-2012, 06:14 PM

I'm close to making a purchase decision on a replacement toilet and want to be sure I'm not missing something obvious. For instance I came across a mention about the new toilet's footprint covering the old footprint -- I have a real oak wood floor in the bathroom. (house is 126 yrs old this yr)

Clearly my choice is Toto or Toto.

The old (c.1970/80s?) gasping near-death toilet is an American Standard one piece ... I cannot say enough bad things about it so will say nothing.

The rough-in is 14" so I am resigned to conjuring some sort of artsy storage in the gap. (The quoted cost for the Toto Vespin w/14" unifit is over $800 and I'd rather save my pennies for a washlet someday.)

I am pretty well ready to buy the Drake (cst743s) but the footprint question has me wondering. What else should I ask about or watch for? And how do I know if the Drake will cover the whole area where the AS sits today (I doubt it actually, the AS is a squatty fat beast)?

What's supposed to be the advantage of "with bolt down lid"? Is that the tank lid?

**jadnashua** · 11-06-2012, 08:40 PM

Well, I've had my Vespin for awhile, but it cost nowhere near $800! Shop around a bit. You can get an idea by checking what Terry sells it for, but he won't ship - you have to pick it up! Obviously, not likely possible for you.

If you don't want to deal with the extra gap behind the toilet, a 14" rough-in toilet really is your best choice, and the Totos with the Unifit will project into the room less than most (if not all).

The bolt down lid (the top of the tank) is designed for places where they don't want people messing with the internal parts of the toilet, like a public restroom so someone can't take it off and break it, for example.

You probably won't know if a new toilet will cover the old spot without some very careful measurements and luck.

**Terry** · 11-06-2012, 08:52 PM

If you post a picture of the old bowl, that will help.
The Drakes do cover a multitude of sins. There are exceptions to be sure. The older Kohler one-piece curves out just a bit more at the bolts. There are a few bowls with square fronts that show just a bit of that. But for the most part, they have been very good at coverage.

**snowlion** · 11-07-2012, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Terry

If you post a picture of the old bowl, that will help.

First pic shows the location of the water supply if you squint at the base near the floor on the left side. Water comes up thru the floor, not the wall. I tried to measure I think it is 6" from the center of the unit? I could be wrong...

Second pic shows the toilet cubby, radiator to the right.

Toilet at base of tank is 19" wide; lid is about 22" wide, whole thing is about 22" tall.

**wjcandee** · 11-07-2012, 08:58 AM

If you are talking about white, figure about half of that for the Vespin II. Do some research and call around to the plumbing supply places. That may be a good solution for you.

**snowlion** · 11-07-2012, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by wjcandee

If you are talking about white, figure about half of that for the Vespin II. Do some research and call around to the plumbing supply places. That may be a good solution for you.

This is a good suggestion, obviously. I haven't had great luck thus far. Sample: "we only do full bathroom remodels." "we only install Gerber." "No one installs 14" anymore." Discouraging. I'm not giving up yet.

Also you know how hard it is to find a licensed, qualified plumber, yes? There's an org around here that a lot of shops subscribe to, they send out mass mailers a few times a year with bullet points to explain why they charge so much. It's just basic business 101 ("to maintain overhead, to market our services") and no one should be trying to justify their prices that way, but that's plumbing in this part of the country. Or, I could get lucky and find the good plumber who doesn't charge $800 to walk in the house.

**wptski** · 11-07-2012, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by snowlion

This is a good suggestion, obviously. I haven't had great luck thus far. Sample: "we only do full bathroom remodels." "we only install Gerber." "No one installs 14" anymore." Discouraging. I'm not giving up yet.

Who says that you have to install a 14" only? If you have a 14" rough in now, anything else "should" fit. I'm no expert but I believe only the tank size changes with different rough in sizes.

You mentioned that 6" center line distance to your floor inlet. I know that all rough in PDFs of American Standard show a 6" distance from the center line to a wall inlet. I just installed a AS Cadet 3 and you can't even see the wall inlet if viewed directly from the front as it's way less than 6".

I assume that Toto has rough in dimensions for their products also that you can look at also. Maybe some CAD file also but then you'd need a free "good" CAD viewer which is hard to find.

My rough measurement prior to purchase show less than 12" so I was worried how close the tank would be to the wall so I went with a 10" model.

Hope this link works to the Vespin II: http://www.totousa.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=631. It did, select Downloads>Specs.

Wow, they show a larger distance to the wall inlet!!

**snowlion** · 11-07-2012, 12:14 PM

Just to clarify some things. What I want is to make sure I'm doing my due diligence in asking the right questions before making a purchase and hiring. (I have a curse it seems w/regards to plumbing so no diy for me.)

I've done quite a bit of research, and while ideally I'd like to replace the current toilet with a 14" rough in because it would fit the space properly, I haven't found the right combination of price, style and function. (who thought toilet styles would matter?)

The water inlet comes up from the floor but I think the main issue to consider is distance? Sales people can be vague; I got the impression that certain models can be problematic with my floor/distance situation. Yet after measuring it seems the location is "fine for most models" for my toilet.

I stumbled across the footprint reference on this forum and that does concern me because of the wood floor.

About cost; I'm a little resigned about that. "My" plumber (i.e. the known quantity, trustworthy) quoted me $800 in labor alone to install a Toto. They're on my gray list right now after a fiasco replacing a worn faucet valve on my tub last winter (the handle exploded off the wall AFTER they installed it, yes I was showering, lovely). The shop where I saw the Drake said $500 total for install and unit of that, but $850 for the Vespin with the 14" converter. This seems to be the market here, unless I go with a nonlicensed plumber which I'd rather not do.