Water softner flowing backwards.

Users who are viewing this thread

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Then you are just trolling. I will not feed trolls, it just encourages them.
Yeah, lately whenever you are not able to support your advice, or like in this case not explain the basis of your advice, you and a few other 'regulars' here get into name calling and hollerin' 'bout trolls... and lose all credibility.
 

ditttohead

Water systems designer, R&D
Messages
6,088
Reaction score
455
Points
83
Location
Ontario California
The meter being sensitive is not the same as a meter specification. The design and the way it senses water. Go to a meter training seminar and get back with us afterwards to discuss.
 

LLigetfa

DIYer, not in the trades
Messages
7,493
Reaction score
574
Points
113
Location
NW Ontario, Canada
Yeah, lately whenever you are not able to support your advice, or like in this case not explain the basis of your advice, you and a few other 'regulars' here get into name calling and hollerin' 'bout trolls... and lose all credibility.

I have explained it more than once. It is YOU that cannot grasp it. Ditttohead has no problem to comprehend what I wrote.

That's the problem when you are self-taught. You are missing some very basic fundamentals.
 

Mialynette2003

In the Trades
Messages
944
Reaction score
17
Points
18
Location
Ocala, Florida
Five gpm is not a small amount. And if I'm right, a backflow through the softener is not going to add to the gallons used. BTW, a backflow that causes a vacuum can bust the resin tank real easy.
.
Where did you come up with 5 GPM? And if the Clack unit registers the flow (forward or backwards), why would it not add to the gallons used?
 

ditttohead

Water systems designer, R&D
Messages
6,088
Reaction score
455
Points
83
Location
Ontario California
That is why an electronic softener can be plumbed in backwards for years without anyone noticing. The majority of electronic meters are not senitive to a water flows direction, just flow. The mechanical meters (5600 Econominder) will not work when plumbed in backwards. Not sure where he is going with this other than to try to bring up his post count.
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
The meter being sensitive is not the same as a meter specification. The design and the way it senses water. Go to a meter training seminar and get back with us afterwards to discuss.
I see we're playing word games now... In this case I'll take accuracy over sensitive.

The Fleck 5600 SXT, same as the Clack WS-1:
Meter Information
Meter Accuracy Range .25 - 15 GPM +/- 5%

The Fleck 7000 SXT;
Meter Information
Meter accuracy +5/-8% (2 - 40 gpm).
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
800 gal/day at .5 gpm = 30 gal/hour for 26.67 hrs.

Now that is a constant flow for 3 hrs longer than a day and I doubt the geo system is running constantly 24/7. I don't see that happening as some of you do.

I say there is probably a much higher than .5 gpm flow for a shorter period of time and it isn't caused by expansion backflow of only PEX tubing (that he may not have like he doesn't have an expansion tank).

Now I may be wrong but I say there is probably another cause and the check valve solution that y'all have come up with isn't the cure.
 

chachie

New Member
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Greentown, IL
I will try and get pics up, but have been extremely busy with work and with moving into the new house and getting it prepped. I am currently at work now so I can't post pics but will try to write more specifics.

Water line comes in and goes to the pressure tank. There are 3 3/4 water lines that come off the pressure tank line. One is a spigot, 1 goes to the water softener and the 3rd one goes to the geothermal unit. Besides on/off valves, and the taco valve that is right before the inlet of the geo thermal, there isn't anything else.

There is no thermal expansion tank.

Most of my plumbing is PVC, but the new stuff that the plumbers put in is PEX.
If the Geo is off, the meter on the clack does not register any gallons of soft water use. The only time it does is when the Geo is on, or, If i open a valve at the storage tank and dump water into the sump pump pit. This will also cause usage to show up on the clack.

If I turn the inlet to the water softner on bypass, or turn the valve off to the softener, while the geo is on, no water usuage is measured on the clack.
While geo is running, the cycle time of my water pump is about 30 seconds. about 13 seconds to discharge and about 17 seconds to charge while geo is running.

I went from 992 gallons left to recharge, down to 770 gallons, from 5am to 12 pm. The temp was high 30's to low 40's. I have a 3 ton and approximately 2700 sq ft(including the unfinished basement) home. The unit is not running constantly, but it does run a lot.
 

Mikey

Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek
Messages
3,024
Reaction score
17
Points
38
Location
Hansville, Washington
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that while the geo is running the pump pressure is fluctuating up and down causing water to move back and forth across the meter. For it to do that, there has to be some room for expansion on the soft side, perhaps an expansion tank for the hot water or lots of PEX lines.

Monitor the pressure while the geo is running to see if it is fluctuating.

If you put in a checkvalve then you need to have an expansion tank after it.

That's my guess now as well. Have you actually watched the pressure gauge at the pressure tank while this is going on? Is there a solenoid valve in the geo lines anywhere to isolate all the geo plumbing from the rest of the world when the geo is off? I wonder if you need a check valve in the geo dump line pointing to the well.
 

Tom Sawyer

In the Trades
Messages
3,625
Reaction score
34
Points
48
Location
Maine
The Heat pump generally has it's own pump which may be pulling through the softener when it runs and because it pulls a fairly high volume and water always follows the path of least resistance that path may be through the softner outlet.
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Water line comes in and goes to the pressure tank. There are 3 3/4 water lines that come off the pressure tank line.

One is a spigot, 1 goes to the water softener and the 3rd one goes to the geothermal unit. Besides on/off valves, and the taco valve that is right before the inlet of the geo thermal, there isn't anything else.
Is that the actual order from the pressure tank? Your description sounds like there is no pr. tank tee, just regular tubing. A pic of that would be nice.

What is a Taco valve?

There is no thermal expansion tank.

Most of my plumbing is PVC, but the new stuff that the plumbers put in is PEX.
If the Geo is off, the meter on the clack does not register any gallons of soft water use. The only time it does is when the Geo is on, or, If i open a valve at the storage tank and dump water into the sump pump pit. This will also cause usage to show up on the clack.
What storage tank, and why do you have one, what is it used for?

Is it a pressurized tank or non pressurized?

If I turn the inlet to the water softner on bypass, or turn the valve off to the softener, while the geo is on, no water usuage is measured on the clack.
Do you mean you have a stop valve or 3 valve manual by pass AND a Clack by pass valve too? A pic would be helpful.

While geo is running, the cycle time of my water pump is about 30 seconds. about 13 seconds to discharge and about 17 seconds to charge while geo is running.
When you say discharge do you mean from the time the pump turns off until it comes on again? And the charge is from the time the pump comes on until it shuts off?

If so that is way too little time for the pump to be off between starts and that is going to kill your pump fairly soon and it runs up your electric bill.

That is called short cycling and all pump manufacturers want the pump off at least 60 seconds for up to 2hp pumps. For 2hp and larger the time is longer.

That length of time is controlled by the size of the pressure tank and that and the psi range of the pump pressure switch controls the number of gallons the tank delivers between pump runs; those gallons are called draw down gallons.

I went from 992 gallons left to recharge, down to 770 gallons, from 5am to 12 pm. The temp was high 30's to low 40's. I have a 3 ton and approximately 2700 sq ft(including the unfinished basement) home. The unit is not running constantly, but it does run a lot.
992-770=222. 222gals/7hrs=31.714 gals per hr., or .5 gpm for all of 7 hrs. Since the geo doesn't run constantly the flow through the softener has to be higher than .5 gpm.

I can not believe or see how others here can believe that that much flow is due to expansion of PEX tubing a few seconds once every 30 seconds. Plus it would mean that the pump is not coming on before the pressure tank empties since there is no restriction to backflow meaning the pressure is always the same in the PEX as it is in the pressure tank. So to me there has to be another cause.

Plus there is the storage tank being dumped into the sump pump hole causing the same flow through the softener. Which makes me wonder why a storage tank dumping into a sump pump and where the drain line from the softener is going.
 

Tom Sawyer

In the Trades
Messages
3,625
Reaction score
34
Points
48
Location
Maine
Are you thinking that there is perhaps a siphon going on? I'd like to see pictures of the set up but that's a distinct possiblity. If the drain line is in the same hole as the geo, and the sump fills over the softener drain line it could possibly pull through that drain line when the geo is running. raising the drain line so there's an air gap will give him a quick answer.
 

Mikey

Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek
Messages
3,024
Reaction score
17
Points
38
Location
Hansville, Washington
Where is the geo system getting its source water from? Another well, I presume? In any event, why would it dump into the domestic well's pump output line? I could understand using the domestic well as the dump (or the source, for that matter), but I'd rather see a separate dump line to the well, and not pressurize the line the well pump has to pump into.

Note -- I have no expertise in the area of open-loop geo systems. Maybe it shows.
 

chachie

New Member
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Greentown, IL
Sorry been away from the computer.

Again, thanks for all the replies and help.

Problem is fixed, continue reading if you want to know.....

So, I decided to try and fix the short cycling of my pump. I turned my pump off and emptied my water lines, put in a new pressure gauge, and pressurized my pressure tank to the correct value. This solved 2 problems. My cycling went from about 48 seconds, to 2 minutes and 50 seconds. AND, my water softener quit flowing backwards!

My best guess is since my pressure tank wasn't working correctly, it was causing my water lines to charge and discharge to fast, causing the meter in my water softener to move.

Cheers!
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks