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Thread: Water softner flowing backwards.

  1. #16
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    ...explain how you get back flow through the softener constantly while the geo is running.
    Gary, you seem to be missing the point. I very much doubt there is continuous backflow. Rather, there is a very small amount of flow that goes back AND forth, moving the turbine enough to generate pulses. The softener doesn't know from the pulses whether the turbine is rotating one way or the other.

  2. #17
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Gary, you seem to be missing the point. I very much doubt there is continuous backflow. Rather, there is a very small amount of flow that goes back AND forth, moving the turbine enough to generate pulses. The softener doesn't know from the pulses whether the turbine is rotating one way or the other.
    It is rare, but we also see a similar problem occassionally when a recirculation pump is used for hat water in a house. The Clack turbine is one of the most sensitive on the market, highly accurate, and tends to be more prone to this than other meter designs. It is not a negative, it just goes to show how accurate the meters have gotten in the past 10-15 years. Even a small fluctuation in the water movement is seen by Clacks excellent meter design.

  3. #18
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Gary, you seem to be missing the point. I very much doubt there is continuous backflow. Rather, there is a very small amount of flow that goes back AND forth, moving the turbine enough to generate pulses. The softener doesn't know from the pulses whether the turbine is rotating one way or the other.
    I don't think I'm missing a point, I read where you aren't saying continuous backflow...

    Simple question that you should be able to answer to support your position; since he doesn't have an expansion tank now, and as yet we don't know that he "has a lot of PEX" tubing that with his well water system pressure is expanding/contracting as you guess, and the Clack turbine doesn't like to run backwards, how do you see him getting non constant backflow totaling some 800 gallons per day as he has said he is seeing or has calculated?

    BTW, all valve meters have a percentage of error and thereby don't register very small flows.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  4. #19
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I don't think I'm missing a point...
    Then you are just trolling. I will not feed trolls, it just encourages them.

  5. #20
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    It is rare, but we also see a similar problem occassionally when a recirculation pump is used for hat water in a house. The Clack turbine is one of the most sensitive on the market, highly accurate, and tends to be more prone to this than other meter designs. It is not a negative, it just goes to show how accurate the meters have gotten in the past 10-15 years. Even a small fluctuation in the water movement is seen by Clacks excellent meter design.
    I haven't asked about a hot water recirculation system yet because it shouldn't be the cause or the problem.

    I haven't looked up the Fleck metering specs but I disagree with you about Clack being the most sensitive because I think I recall Fleck metering being a bit better than +/-5% and no less than a 1/4 gpm.

    Here is the Clack WS-1 specs: (+/-5% and no less than a 1/4 gpm)

    Meter
    Accuracy... 5%
    Flow Rate Range... 0.25 – 27 gpm

    Gallon Range... 20 – 50,000 gallons
    Totalizer... 1000 - 9,999,000 gallons
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  6. #21
    Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek Mikey's Avatar
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    Exactly where in the overall system is the "dump" line from the geo conected?

  7. #22
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LLigetfa View Post
    Then you are just trolling. I will not feed trolls, it just encourages them.
    Yeah, lately whenever you are not able to support your advice, or like in this case not explain the basis of your advice, you and a few other 'regulars' here get into name calling and hollerin' 'bout trolls... and lose all credibility.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  8. #23
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    Exactly where in the overall system is the "dump" line from the geo conected?
    So far only the OP knows. Hopefully he'll answer some of the questions we need answered to be able to help him. Otherwise he'll apply a band aid and hope.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #24
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    The meter being sensitive is not the same as a meter specification. The design and the way it senses water. Go to a meter training seminar and get back with us afterwards to discuss.

  10. #25
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Yeah, lately whenever you are not able to support your advice, or like in this case not explain the basis of your advice, you and a few other 'regulars' here get into name calling and hollerin' 'bout trolls... and lose all credibility.
    I have explained it more than once. It is YOU that cannot grasp it. Ditttohead has no problem to comprehend what I wrote.

    That's the problem when you are self-taught. You are missing some very basic fundamentals.

  11. #26
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Five gpm is not a small amount. And if I'm right, a backflow through the softener is not going to add to the gallons used. BTW, a backflow that causes a vacuum can bust the resin tank real easy.
    .
    Where did you come up with 5 GPM? And if the Clack unit registers the flow (forward or backwards), why would it not add to the gallons used?

  12. #27
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    That is why an electronic softener can be plumbed in backwards for years without anyone noticing. The majority of electronic meters are not senitive to a water flows direction, just flow. The mechanical meters (5600 Econominder) will not work when plumbed in backwards. Not sure where he is going with this other than to try to bring up his post count.

  13. #28
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    The meter being sensitive is not the same as a meter specification. The design and the way it senses water. Go to a meter training seminar and get back with us afterwards to discuss.
    I see we're playing word games now... In this case I'll take accuracy over sensitive.

    The Fleck 5600 SXT, same as the Clack WS-1:
    Meter Information
    Meter Accuracy Range .25 - 15 GPM +/- 5%

    The Fleck 7000 SXT;
    Meter Information
    Meter accuracy +5/-8% (2 - 40 gpm).
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #29
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    800 gal/day at .5 gpm = 30 gal/hour for 26.67 hrs.

    Now that is a constant flow for 3 hrs longer than a day and I doubt the geo system is running constantly 24/7. I don't see that happening as some of you do.

    I say there is probably a much higher than .5 gpm flow for a shorter period of time and it isn't caused by expansion backflow of only PEX tubing (that he may not have like he doesn't have an expansion tank).

    Now I may be wrong but I say there is probably another cause and the check valve solution that y'all have come up with isn't the cure.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  15. #30
    DIY Junior Member chachie's Avatar
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    I will try and get pics up, but have been extremely busy with work and with moving into the new house and getting it prepped. I am currently at work now so I can't post pics but will try to write more specifics.

    Water line comes in and goes to the pressure tank. There are 3 3/4 water lines that come off the pressure tank line. One is a spigot, 1 goes to the water softener and the 3rd one goes to the geothermal unit. Besides on/off valves, and the taco valve that is right before the inlet of the geo thermal, there isn't anything else.

    There is no thermal expansion tank.

    Most of my plumbing is PVC, but the new stuff that the plumbers put in is PEX.
    If the Geo is off, the meter on the clack does not register any gallons of soft water use. The only time it does is when the Geo is on, or, If i open a valve at the storage tank and dump water into the sump pump pit. This will also cause usage to show up on the clack.

    If I turn the inlet to the water softner on bypass, or turn the valve off to the softener, while the geo is on, no water usuage is measured on the clack.
    While geo is running, the cycle time of my water pump is about 30 seconds. about 13 seconds to discharge and about 17 seconds to charge while geo is running.

    I went from 992 gallons left to recharge, down to 770 gallons, from 5am to 12 pm. The temp was high 30's to low 40's. I have a 3 ton and approximately 2700 sq ft(including the unfinished basement) home. The unit is not running constantly, but it does run a lot.

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