Iridescent Particles in Ardex's 8+9 Waterproofing - A closer look

[johnfrwhipple]

Morning men.

I'm looking for some help into a strange slick forming on my Ardex 8+9 flood tests. I first noticed the shinny iridescent particles in the Ardex 8+9 powder and email my rep at Ardex asking what they where. I was told he did not know and that they are in all the Ardex products. Not much help there but who cares right? Wrong.

I tested a little cone of Ardex 8+9 made from nothing but Ardex 8+9 and cardboard. It held great and no leaks. I left the test for multiple days to see if the product would hold out until the water evaporated. At about day five I took these pictures.





You can see the shiny patches floating on the water. It is a skim layer and quite shinny. If you touch the water with your finger they break apart.

I send out an email asking why this happens after it happen again on this shower flood test.





I heard back from my rep that he had never heard of this happening before. The slick does not show up until after 36 plus hours so it may be that no one has ever flood tested the product this long before.

Those of you that know me well know that I'm an information hound. I want to understand why this is happening and if this is a good thing or a bad thing. The flood testing has been perfect. Zero loss of water in all four showers that I flood test this month with the Ardex 8+9. My gut feeling is that the Ardex 8+9 has a slight solvent based content to it and this is the result of off gassing. Or that there is a second reaction that happens when the Ardex 8+9 meets water. Kind of the way cement repair mortar can grow crystals to plug holes in concrete.

I will need to test the product more and more controlled.

I can say it's not the water because I drank it in all three job sites.

It was not the temperature because we had heat on all three jobs.

It was not the cure time because I allowed each coat to dry at least 12 hours.

Any ideas men?

JW

[boardable]

John, working in the automotive industry I know that is petroleum. Which means any petroleum that is in the ardex that did not get encapsulated is floating. no big deal. It could simply be something they use so ardex doesn't stick to the container it is in or in the manufacturing process.

[johnfrwhipple]

John, working in the automotive industry I know that is petroleum. Which means any petroleum that is in the ardex that did not get encapsulated is floating. no big deal. It could simply be something they use so ardex doesn't stick to the container it is in or in the manufacturing process.

Would it stand to reason that these particles would migrate straight up?

Evaporation Control (coin tipped at the same position at flood test start)



I installed an evaporation control (for my shower flood test) over a plastic ring. The evaporation control was a dinner plate filled with some water. When I removed this dinner plate there was a perfect circle with no film.





I wonder why this is?

I sent out a few emails this morning asking some people I know in the business what they thought of this iridescent layer on my 8+9 flood test. One reply later today mentioned that perhap's it was a containment in the air but since the evaporation control did no suffer the samy shiny fate I think we can rule this out. The shiny layer or iridescent layer of film suggests a petroleum substance must be leeching out over time. Also the effect happen on three separate job sites so I'm sure the substance is not coming from the air.

I have never seen this in any flood test I have preformed with Kerdi, Noble Seal TS, Red Guard, Hydro Ban, HPG, Aqua Defence, Noble Seal SIS or any standard shower pan liner. My guess is that some oily substance is leeching out over time - perhaps the shiny flakes in the 8+9 are petroleum based???



This is the kicker. The evaporation control lost more water than the shower flood test! Now when we want to slow the evaporation down on a p-trap we will sometimes place some olive oil on top. This slows the evaporation down. It stands to reason that an oily petroleum based product is floating on the top side and slowing the evaporation.

Clearly I need some more data and a series of controlled flood tests.

I will need to rule out Mapecum Screed Mortar from the equation. I have used this screed mortar in the past with Noble Seal TS, Aqua Defence and Hydro Ban with no similar results but perhaps it's a reaction between the two cementious products???

I find this a stretch since the same effect happen with the cardboard but it's easier to start ticking things off. Maybe another control test with just plexi glass and distilled water.

Another mentor of mine suggested that perhaps it's a chemical residual and that I should check their MSDS document. I'll look for that right now.

Thanks men for all your help!

JW

[johnfrwhipple]

I found the MSDS Safety Data sheet on Ardex 8+9 here: http://www.ardex.com/cms%5Cassets%5C...-msds-cn-e.pdf

The data sheet (For Part 8 - The Liquid) lists Vinyl Acetate Copolymer.

Some features of Vinyl Acetate Copolymer are;

• High toughness, durability, chemical and stain resistance
• Superior tensile strength and abrasion resistance
• Adhesion to PVC substrates
• Low adhesion to metal for strippable coatings
• FDA approved for food contact applications

The liquid looks white in colour by my eyes not light pink.

I found another data sheet here http://www.ardex.com/cms/Assets/Prod...-msds-us-e.pdf

The Powder (Part 8) Data Sheet lists

• Max Quartz
• Max Portland Cement
• Calcium Carbonate
• Vinyl Acetate Copolymer

The Max Quartz appears to be a silica product and most references I find for it are from Chinese manufactures and they list it as a white product. Calcium Carbonate appears to be white as well. Hmmm. No great leads from the Data Sheets.

JW

[boardable]

Vinyle acetate co polymer. Probably lighter than water so it floats. Take a dish and put in a tiny drop of motor oil in it. The sheen will be there. Take a tile spacer and drop it in a bucket. It floats. You have tested Ardex and you know it works well. Just be sure to clean the oil off before tiling.

[johnfrwhipple]

Vinyle acetate co polymer. Probably lighter than water so it floats. Take a dish and put in a tiny drop of motor oil in it. The sheen will be there. Take a tile spacer and drop it in a bucket. It floats. You have tested Ardex and you know it works well. Just be sure to clean the oil off before tiling.

So I got an email from Ardex Technical (Harrison Gardner <Harrison.Gardner@ArdexAmericas.com>) and hopefully he will be able to shed some light into this effect. Harrison asked me about the mix ratio I used for the 8+9 and how long I let it dry before I added water to the flood test.

The Ardex 8+9 states that it dries in 90 minutes and can be flood tested in 4 hours. I found that it dries in 2-4 hours (not 90 minutes) and I waited overnight (12 plus hours) before flood testing.

Lets see what tomorrow brings.

JW

[boardable]

John I am interested to find out what the rep has to say

[johnfrwhipple]

John I am interested to find out what the rep has to say

Me too.

JW

[johnfrwhipple]

I did hear back from Ardex and was told that they have never heard of this before. I was further told that they tested this as well in the UK and Germany and also no report of the same slick forming on the flood test layer.

The only thing I have not ruled out thus far is the mixing paddle. Ardex has their own just for the 8+9 product. I order one almost six weeks ago and just picked it up last week.

I'll do another series of testing with the proper paddle and see if it makes a difference. The 8+9 does not like to be mixed so take your time and slowly add the powder to the liquid.

I want to try another test where I let the product cure out for a periods of say three days before flood testing. It might be that the cure time is such that you can flood test in four hours after application. I have allowed 12+ hours before flood tests but not 72. I'll try this next.

Proper paddle and a 4 hour wait. a 48 hour wait and a 72 hour wait.

Stand by for updates.

[johnfrwhipple]

Just sent out an email to my local Ardex rep asking him to product demo the 8+9 product for me here in Vancouver. Perhaps Glenn can show me how to preform the test box without the irredescent particles showing up on a 3 day flood test.

I'll report back once we arrange a time to do this testing.

I have not heard anything back from Ardex this past week. All I have been told is that it has never happened before.

Lets see what Glenn can do and if the fault is in the applicator or the product.

My gut tells me this is a second reaction taking place somehow. I have not lost a drop of water in these flood test so it's not a leak.

I also find it interesting that the colour softens to a littler brown colour but does not turn back to the darker brown of the cured product. Maybe the issue is with the dye in the 8+9??? Maybe it's leaching out.


JW

[boardable]

I am really eager to hear what they have to say .

[johnfrwhipple]

HI Boardable.

I spoke yesterday with Harrison the technical guy at Ardex about my findings.

We discussed it in length and Harrison said that Bob Russell would be in Vancouver in a couple of weeks. I'm thinking that maybe Bob will arrange the "Duck Box" test for me here.

I asked Harrison about the shinny particles and he did not offer up a solid answer but mentioned it might be "Mica" from the sand. I did a lot of research on Mica and it looks like a lot of industries use this product in their manufacturing.

I'll be working with a new batch of 8+9 today so I'll prep a few new "Duck Boxes".

JW

[jadnashua]

FWIW, if I remember correctly, granite always contains at least these three minerals: mica, quartz, feldspar. Since sand can have many sources, it's not unreasonable that some of it could have been created from granite, but the majority of sand is quartz (highly purified suff might end up mostly quartz required for clear glass). But, mica does not disolve in water.

[johnfrwhipple]

.... But, mica does not disolve in water.

Thanks Jim.

So we can explain the shinny particles but still not the slick effect.

I read a lot on Mica and perhaps it is also added for some of the levelling and elastic properties Mica brings to the table. This is an interesting read.

"....Ground mica

The leading use of dry-ground mica in the US is in joint compound for filling and finishing seams and blemishes in gypsum wallboard (drywall). The mica acts as a filler and extender, provides a smooth consistency, improves the workability of the compound, and provides resistance to cracking....."
*Source


Here is a company that sells Mica and list the different uses. I'm betting that the Mica is added to some extend to improve the product.

Another interesting site on Mica

JW

[boardable]

Wow this is all very interesting I am staying tuned on this one.