Waterproofing a shower

[NYC-DIY]

Would like to get a few opinions. My contractor is building the shower with the following layers..

Floor:

- plywood
- no pre-slope
- 40 mil PVC liner
- traditional drain
- sloped mud bed
- laticrete
- thinset & tile

Curb:

- wood
- same 40mil PVC from floor
- concrete board
- laticrete
- thinset & tile

Walls:

- studs
- concrete board
- laticrete (I insisted in this. He claims it is not needed on shower walls and he's never had a shower fail)
- thinset & tile

Would like several opinions on what is good and bad with the above since it is weird mix of traditional and topical waterproofing. Specifically:

1. How bad to have no pre-slope considering pan with laticrete also?
2. Is is ok to have both PVC liner and laticrete?
3. Ok to build curb with laticrete over concrete board?
4. What are concrete board seams (curb and wall) sealed with as I may have to tell them?
5. Is the laticrete necessary on walls like I insisted or would a wall with only concrete board and thinset&tile been ok like my contractor said?

Thanks!

[johnfrwhipple]

Would like to get a few opinions. My contractor is building the shower with the following layers..

Floor:

- plywood
- no pre-slope
- 40 mil PVC liner
- traditional drain
- sloped mud bed
- laticrete
- thinset & tile

Is your contractor going to use the "Divot Method" of shower base construction? You say Laticrete - do you mean Laticrete's Hydro Ban?

Curb:

- wood
- same 40mil PVC from floor
- concrete board
- laticrete
- thinset & tile

Wood has no business in a shower's curb construction. Make one from bricks or concrete! Laticrete = Hydro Ban???

Walls:

- studs
- concrete board
- laticrete (I insisted in this. He claims it is not needed on shower walls and he's never had a shower fail)
- thinset & tile

Your missing the building paper or poly if he goes this route. I would want the back side and bottom of the concrete board Hydro Banned if the board is to be placed into the shower's mortar bed.

Would like several opinions on what is good and bad with the above since it is weird mix of traditional and topical waterproofing. Specifically:

1. How bad to have no pre-slope considering pan with laticrete also?

Horrible if no divot method is being used. O.K. if the PVC liner is used as a back up to the Hydro Ban system. If you are going with Hydro Ban on the floor why not use there new drain? It's like a KErdi drain but made by Laticrete.

Or you could use a Noble Company Noble Flex Flashing and then Hydro Ban - better get permission first! I've used this system on many showers with great success.

2. Is is ok to have both PVC liner and laticrete?

Of course. Laticrete endorses this very technic in their steam shower specification. Check it out. It is a good guide to follow. http://www.laticrete.com/portals/0/tds/tds172.pdf

3. Ok to build curb with laticrete over concrete board?

I would use Laticrete 3701 with expanded diamond lath. 2" thickness required on floor and I would do the same on the curb top. You would be better off with a brick curb or concrete curb.


4. What are concrete board seams (curb and wall) sealed with as I may have to tell them?

They should be first taped and thin-setted first. This needs to dry. The 3701 Laticrete deck mud will need at least three days to cure before waterproofing.
Make sure you tell your crew to flood test the shower pan! All water should drain away after the test.


5. Is the laticrete necessary on walls like I insisted or would a wall with only concrete board and thinset&tile been ok like my contractor said?

Necessary - no. Should it be there yes. By code it's not required.

Careful hiring an old timer and making him use new products. Find out the schedule. Ask what products will be used and ensure the right process is used.

The shower should be build and then allowed to dry - three days.

Then the waterproofing process - 2-3 days.

Flood test 15minutes to 72 hours. 3 days is best.

Then tile work 2-3 days.

Then wait a good week.

Then grout.

Then wait a good week.

Then seal the grout.

Do you have time for this? If not then you need to use a different approach or drop your standard.

You can't mix and match approaches and everything needs proper cure times.


It is a tough business to build a shower right. A proper build comes with many part days or half work days. This is why we only do shower waterproofing here in Vancouver - this way we can bounce around and keep our clients projects moving forward. A typical shower crew would prefer to start and finish your job Monday to Friday. This is best for them - not you. Skipping a flood test is best for them - not you. Grouting after the tile is done is quick and requires no trip back - not the best for your tile assembly.



Thanks!

Good luck with the renovation - DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

Did you check references of this crew?

JW

[jadnashua]

The liner flat on the floor should be a major red flag...plumbing code requires the waterproof layer to be sloped to the drain. WHEN, not if, moisture makes it beneath the setting bed, it must have a path to the drain, and if it is flat, it will NOT flow to the drain and will slightly accumulate. The chemistry of mortar is that after a couple of years, the pH changes and it then starts to smell like a swamp if it is used a lot and not given a chance to thoroughly dry out.

Insist it is built per one of the approved methods which ALL require the liner to be on a sloped bed.

[Manny1981]

New waterproofing membrane information will be posted once final certification is completed. Will keep you updated.

[johnfrwhipple]

Manny what company do you work for? It says in your profile that you are a;

Business owner, part-time DIY'er (weekend warrior!) I love the industry I'm in, and I have a lot of fun with projects around my home and my friend's homes.

Brooklyn, NY

Photography, painting, cars, computer tech, gadgetry, landscaping, etc.

Business owner, Kitchen & Bath showroom

I find when a new user (one post) swings by Terry's site most times they are someone in an office. Typically they work in a marketing office where they specialize in online promotions. Since you have plugged this new and improved system can you share with us what kind of mil guage you used? Did you flood test the shower? How long has the product be used in the field?

Is there and IAPMO certification for it - I'll just looked it up and surprise surprise there is none. So are you telling me you used a non-approved shower waterproofing product to build a shower? You do understand that any shower membrane needs an approval ANSI 118.10. Look it up. http://pld.iapmo.org/default.asp

Before I even entertain the idea of you being an actual user of this product please share with us your business name.

Hey there,

I'm assuming that your project is finished by now, but for the other people who will be stopping by here to get info, I thought I'd share the following information. Laticrete is good, but rather expensive. I switched to a new product a while back, and I'm extremely happy with it. It's called BondTAC. Simply put, it's an elastomeric waterproofing / water repellent membrane, air & vapor barrier, and an extremely powerful adhesive, all in one. It's not a think compound like Laticrete or RedGard, so you'd need to tape / close off all but hairline cracks with acrylic based mastic, and then give it proper drying time. Put it this way - before you paint a room, would you patch up the entire wall, or just the old picture nail holes, small dents, etc? You can build the shower walls with sheetrock, coat it with BondTAC, and you'll never have to worry about water getting through (and it's mold & mildew resistant). BondTAC replaces ALL other waterproofing layers in the shower. As long as you have a seamless coat, you are fully protected. I do know that people complain that RedGard doesn't stick to Hardi Backer board. BondTAC adheres to virtually any surface (excluding oil-based product coated surfaces - it is solvent-based, after all). There are a bunch of demonstration and how-to videos on YouTube, just search for "BondTAC". And here's the kicker - it gets 225-500 square feet per gallon of coverage! On a very porous surface like concrete, the first coat will get a minimum of 225 sq. ft., and the second coat will go significantly farther. Sheetrock? 500 square feet per gallon. None of the other waterproof membranes even comes close to that. Basically, if you are using this for your waterproofing company, and getting 5-gallon pails, you are looking at costs as low as 15 cents per square foot. I cordially invite you to pick your jaws up from the floor, and think of the possibilities. Oh, and if you are doing exterior below-grade foundation waterproofing, BondTAC is a fantastic primer for WP200 Blueskin And lastly, basement waterproofing - seal it up, never worry about it. Any cracks that may develop over time will never breach the BondTAC seal - it stretches over 4 inches without any loss of it's waterproofing or air/vapor barrier capabilities. I really could keep going on, but I think you get the general idea here

500 square feet per gallon over sheet rock. Man that is funny. Is it April Fools day?

I think you will find a strong resistance to shooting down Laticrete's products online. The crew at Laticrete is a class act and their products are field tested with a long history. How many showers have you flood tested with your new product? I have flood tested dozens with Hydro Ban. I do this type of work for a living and I believe you sell cabinets. I wonder who knows more about this subject. I hope you have not trashed any of your friends projects with something so thin it can cover 500 square feet of sheetrock. Thats like 15 1/2 sheets of drywall - anyone that actually gets their hands dirty for a living would see the humour in your post.

What type of mask did you wear? The stuff is Flamable! Really. Data sheet says so http://www.bondtac.com/pdf/MSDS-1500.pdf

...2000 lbs per 4' x 8' section ...

4'x8' = 32 square feet

48" x 96" = 4608 square inches

2000lbs / 4608 square inches = 0.43 lbs per square inch

Average brick 4"x8" = 32 square inch

32 * 0.43 = 3.47 lbs

I hung over 1800 pounds of water on ONE brick using Laticrete 254 and Ditra. You are suggesting that 2000lbs rating over a 4'x8' area is good? Do the math my friend - do the math.

1800 / 32 = 56.25 lbs

JW

Jim you are an Engineer - What percentage is Ditra/254 better than BondTAC

[johnfrwhipple]

Some research this morning.

Goggled "Manny BondTac" guess what comes up. http://www.gluetek.com/about-gluetek

Guess what the distrubutors name is for BondTac? GlueTek. Guess who is the owner & founder of GlueTek - Manny Halpern

So in the profile above I think manny1981 forgot to list his other business. Who wants to bet that Manny was born in 1981?

Want more info on GlueTek call


GLUETEK
Street: 4720 3rd Ave
Town: Brooklyn
State: New York
Zip Code: 11220
Phone: (866) 291-6380
Fax: (718) 439-9777

If someone wants to introduce a new product - why not just do that? But to slam a respected company like this is a poor move on GlueTek's part. Do people really think they are being clever? Yet another in the long list of promoters I have found over the years...

[Manny1981]

Hey there John,

I understand your skepticism. Bit harsh, but understandable. My own company is Lenfex Kitchen & Bath (www.lenfex.com), but I'm not posting here about that obviously. And you are correct, I do sell the BondTAC products, of course. I am involved, partly, with BondTAC - you see, it's a family owned company. I've helped a bunch of friends with their shower projects, and I've used it in my own shower. I also had my contractor use it to bond "peel & stick" tile to my kitchen floor, and to waterproof and bond Owens Corning XPS insulation to my basement walls. It really IS "that good". As I said, take a look at the YouTube videos. You mentioned the flood test - aside from the showers, which were of course tested, take a look at the aquarium video. I think that's a rather extensive test of BondTAC's waterproofing capabilities. And if you don't believe the coverage area, get a quart - honestly - and test it out yourself. Try it on sheetrock and on cement board. One coat on the first, two on the second. I would really like your first hand opinion of the products. I know it's miles above the other waterproofing membranes - and that sounds impossible, but try it. Take a cardboard box, coat the inside, fill it up and let it sit for as long as you like. BondTAC isn't a major corporation (yet), but it's getting there. As for tests and certifications, see below.

The BondTAC products meet the following Canadian testing and certifications currently, and will have the ANSI 118.10 and 118.12 certifications shortly:

ASTM E 96-05 - Standard Test Methods For Water Vapour Transmission Of Materials
ASTM C 1306-08 - Standard Test Method For Hydrostatic Pressure Resistance Of A Liquid-Applied Waterproofing Membrane
CAN/ULC-S102 - Standard Method Of Test For Surface Burning Characteristics Of Building Materials And Assemblies (Yes, BondTAC is also HIGHLY fire resistant when cured)
40 CFR 51.100 - U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Definition Of VOC Exemption
SOR-2009/264 - VOC Concentration Limits For Architectural Coatings

[johnfrwhipple]

Hey there John,

I understand your skepticism. Bit harsh, but understandable. My own company is Lenfex Kitchen & Bath (www.lenfex.com), but I'm not posting here about that obviously. And you are correct, I do sell the BondTAC products, of course. I am involved, partly, with BondTAC - you see, it's a family owned company. I've helped a bunch of friends with their shower projects, and I've used it in my own shower. I also had my contractor use it to bond "peel & stick" tile to my kitchen floor, and to waterproof and bond Owens Corning XPS insulation to my basement walls. It really IS "that good". As I said, take a look at the YouTube videos. You mentioned the flood test - aside from the showers, which were of course tested, take a look at the aquarium video. I think that's a rather extensive test of BondTAC's waterproofing capabilities. And if you don't believe the coverage area, get a quart - honestly - and test it out yourself. Try it on sheetrock and on cement board. One coat on the first, two on the second. I would really like your first hand opinion of the products. I know it's miles above the other waterproofing membranes - and that sounds impossible, but try it. Take a cardboard box, coat the inside, fill it up and let it sit for as long as you like. BondTAC isn't a major corporation (yet), but it's getting there. As for tests and certifications, see below.

The BondTAC products meet the following Canadian testing and certifications currently, and will have the ANSI 118.10 and 118.12 certifications shortly:

ASTM E 96-05 - Standard Test Methods For Water Vapour Transmission Of Materials
ASTM C 1306-08 - Standard Test Method For Hydrostatic Pressure Resistance Of A Liquid-Applied Waterproofing Membrane
CAN/ULC-S102 - Standard Method Of Test For Surface Burning Characteristics Of Building Materials And Assemblies (Yes, BondTAC is also HIGHLY fire resistant when cured)
40 CFR 51.100 - U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Definition Of VOC Exemption
SOR-2009/264 - VOC Concentration Limits For Architectural Coatings

Nice list of certifications - but to use a product in a shower Bond Tac would need this one ANSI 118.10. With no ANSI 118.10 certification your product is a now go in any shower renovation. Inspectors in Canada and the USA require this. Surely the agent for BondTac should know this?

Seeing how you mislead us and hid the fact that you are the owner of GlueTek and then slammed a company like Laticrete - it is save to say I would not, and will not use your product in my renovations. I may buy some to double check the facts you post since you have tried to hood wink us once already. A smarter move would have been to ask a few of us in the business to review it for you.

Instead you come out and blast Laticrete and leave out the fact that you profit from every unit sold of Bond Tac's waterproofing material.

Dumb move man. Dumb move.

This will go over like a ton of bricks.

I would be back pedalling as fast as I could at this point. I'm pretty sure Vendors are suppose to disclose themselves when they sign up. Pretty sure that is one of the online rules in these forums.

Manny while you debate me on this subject you are helping to draw attention to the fact that your product has no ANSI 118.10 certification. With each post you help secure this thread in goggle's rankings. You surely goggled Waterproofing Showers and found Terry Love's forum.

Had you did any kind of research on me you would have found out that I call things like I see them. I have no issues calling out manufacture's and frequently test all their marketing material. I would not advice you to try your approach on John Bridge's Fourm, On Contractor Talk, On Garden Web or any busy construction arena. Laticrete is a great company. They are helping a lady right now in the states and have done the most generous thing (act of kindness) I have ever seen online. So yes - took personal offense to your posting and tactics.

JW