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Thread: Odd trap / drain depth question.

  1. #16
    DIY Junior Member RPN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hj View Post
    Your logic seems to be that you only have to obey the laws when someone is "watching you". The rest of the time, they are just "Suggestions".

    Not at all hj. Again, every person makes up their own mind about to what level they will comply with the law of the land. Hence my question to TS about speeding and taxes.

    I recently did some electrical upgrades on our farm. To do them to code required a fair amount of trouble and expense. However, I did what was required - with one exception. I spliced inside an LB that did not have the cubic inches marked on it. Some inspectors would pass that and some wouldn't. However, having the cubic inches stamped inside the enclosure does not change physical qualities of the enclosure one whit.

  2. #17
    DIY Junior Member RPN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    they get pissy
    TS, this caught my eye. Read my posts and read your posts. Then tell me who is getting "pissy".

  3. #18
    DIY Junior Member RPN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MACPLUMB 777 View Post
    #1 Most important Hydrogen Sulfide Gas ! Please Google this most
    important for living will "kill" like cyanide or carbon monoxide !
    #2 The solid side of tank with inlet baffle is where tank must be pumped from to properly maintain septic action
    #3 As noted above the state "health code" does not allow for housing
    over a septic tank,

    Thank you for your rational response.

    1. I am familiar with H2S (sewer gas). Yes, it is very toxic (and flammable). I would never consider a traditional wooden joist crawlspace floor over a septic tank port. However, I am quite comfortable with with several inches of concrete between living space and the port.

    For H2S to enter the dwelling, three things would have to happen.

    i. The port plug would have to be dislodged. This seems unlikely, but let's assume that pressure built up in the tank enough to dislodge the concrete plug out of its seal.

    ii. The gas would have to migrate through 12" of packed top soil. If pressure has already dislodged the plug, we can assume that a foot of topsoil is no obstacle.

    iii. The gas has now reached air space that is 12" high, 24" wide, and 30" deep. This space is vented to the outside and surrounded by concrete on the sides, back, and top (and dirt and tank on the bottom). The laws of physics still apply. I do not believe they make a bathroom vent fan that is powerful enough to suck the H2S through the sides or top of that concrete box (even if it cracked).

    2. The solids side could be easily pumped with any hose I have seen on pump trucks around here. The only pumping issue is that a scoop or rod could not be used to break up large solids.

    3. I know, thank you.

  4. #19
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPN View Post
    Not at all hj. Again, every person makes up their own mind about to what level they will comply with the law of the land. Hence my question to TS about speeding and taxes.
    Yes they do. That's why the prisons are full. By your warped rational everyone should be able to break whatever law they don't happen to want to comply with. That's not how our society works.

    I recently did some electrical upgrades on our farm. To do them to code required a fair amount of trouble and expense. However, I did what was required - with one exception. I spliced inside an LB that did not have the cubic inches marked on it. Some inspectors would pass that and some wouldn't. However, having the cubic inches stamped inside the enclosure does not change physical qualities of the enclosure one whit.
    So why are you not willing to comply with your plumbing project? Ahhhhh, it will cost too much and inconvieniance you

    Also notice how nobody is too willing to help you on your project either. Wonder why that is?
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  5. #20
    DIY Junior Member RPN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    So why are you not willing to comply with your plumbing project? Ahhhhh, it will cost too much and inconvieniance you

    The only way to relocate the septic tank would be to move it 100 yards and then it would be higher than the house and require a lift pump. Yep, it will cost too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Also notice how nobody is too willing to help you on your project either. Wonder why that is?
    Have you read my posts in this thread? We have already relocated the position of the drain and this particular thread is now pointless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Yes they do. That's why the prisons are full. By your warped rational everyone should be able to break whatever law they don't happen to want to comply with. That's not how our society works.
    This is getting pretty deep on the philosophical end of things. There are laws that protect our basic civil rights - IE murder is illegal. Then there are laws that have no basis in what people consider our "God given rights" - seatbelt laws are one. You should not be able to break the law in the case of murder (yet, people do). You should be able to break the seatbelt law (and, people do). If you could not ever break any law, then the penalty for every crime would be death. Instead, we try to "make the punishment fit the crime." That is, we assign punishments to laws based on how badly we do not want people to break them. The penalty for not wearing your seatbelt is relatively minor (a fine but no jail time).


    Unless it violates a basic human right, it becomes a simple risk vs reward decision.

    Like it or not, yes, that really is how our society works. Don't believe it? Go drive the speed limit on the interstate and see how many times you get passed.

  6. #21
    DIY Senior Member wjcandee's Avatar
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    Well, this whole "malum in se versus malum prohibitum" thing has been going on literally for thousands of years, so it ain't gonna be solved here today. I do have to say though that I consider the plumbing code to be iussum quia iustum, and it does protect us from ourselves as well as from others.

    What is actually incredibly-heartening to me is the amount of honor and respect the licensed professionals who post here display towards their licenses and the fundamental tenets of their profession. There are wormy apples in every profession, but as someone who takes my own oath and responsibilities seriously, I'm really proud to be around a bunch of professionals who do the same.

    These guys aren't willing to participate in half-assing the thing. They know that there is more than one way to do something right, and they also know that some things are unequivocally wrong.

    And they are not willing to accept your premise that "If you can't show me that it is certainly going to kill my family, then it meets MY own personal plumbing code." Oddly, even when someone indicated a plausible risk to your family, you decided that it wasn't a sufficient risk to concern you.

    The purpose of requiring licenses and doing things to code is not just to prevent potentially-fatal hazards; it's also to keep things from happening that are a simple as what happened to the unfortunate Mom, new to Chicago, who spent $9000 on a bathroom, only to discover that there was no p-trap under her now-sewer-gas-laden tub.

    It's harder always to do everything right, but it's also easier always to do everything right.

    As to your description of your own installation, somehow, I'm getting a mental picture of old schoolbusses buried in the backyard and a sense that authorities come on your land at their personal peril. Yikes. Pretty sure that the place I am thinking of wasn't to code either.

    Anyway, kudos to my fellow professionals (in a different profession than mine) for treating their profession with pride.
    Last edited by wjcandee; 10-05-2012 at 11:07 AM.

  7. #22
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Thank you. The code is there to protect the health and safety of the public. Nobody sits down to write codes just for the sake of making up silly rules. Every single paragraph in the code it there for a specific reason and does not and will not require someone else to make a decision that is contrary. As I suspected the cost is more than the individual is willing to pay so we have established just how much his integrity is worth. This particular discussion has NOTHING at all to do with speeding or seat belt laws or any other law for that matter. It has to do with integrity. Just because there is no one around watching you is not a reason to break the law. Any law. As I said before. If I encountered someone trying to do something (anything) similar in my neck of the woods I would have the state inspector out there with a cease and desist in a heartbeat and I'd make damn sure the guy knew exactly who turned him in. I have too much time, sweat and money into my license and plumbing skills to ignore ANYONE that is not playing by the same rules that I HAVE to play by.

    And yea, you already hacked in your solution so the thread no longer has any reason to exist other than to highlight the lack of honesty and integrity that is all too common in the DIY community.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  8. #23
    DIY Junior Member RPN's Avatar
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    Hello wj, welcome to the party.


    Quote Originally Posted by wjcandee View Post
    Oddly, even when someone indicated a plausible risk to your family, you decided that it wasn't a sufficient risk to concern you.
    I do not believe plausible is the correct word regarding the risk that was mentioned.

    Do you really believe that it is plausible that my family will be killed by H2S because the house is too close to the septic tank?


    Quote Originally Posted by wjcandee View Post
    As to your description of your own installation, somehow, I'm getting a mental picture of old schoolbusses buried in the backyard and a sense that authorities come on your land at their personal peril.
    I almost laughed out loud, but it is nothing like that. It is just your usual farming community where people are not too trustful of strangers. We have too many meth heads around here stealing copper and other metals (to sell for money to buy drugs). My cousin chased a couple of at gun point that were preparing to steal a neighbor's gate. Law enforcement is pretty scarce here and you are mostly on your own. Dialing 911 might get a deputy out in 30 - 40 minutes.


    Quote Originally Posted by wjcandee View Post
    Anyway, kudos to my fellow professionals (in a different profession than mine) for treating their profession with pride.
    I have no problem with somebody wanting nothing to do with a project. Just don't come into my thread whining about how society is going to collapse because I am going to willfully violate the code.

  9. #24
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I have no problem with somebody wanting nothing to do with a project. Just don't come into my thread whining about how society is going to collapse because I am going to willfully violate the code.
    [/QUOTE]

    How about you don't come to "OUR FORUM" looking for advice on how to get away with doing something illegal? Dooooohhh
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  10. #25
    DIY Junior Member RPN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post

    How about you don't come to "OUR FORUM" looking for advice on how to get away with doing something illegal? Dooooohhh

    What did I ask for advice on that was illegal?

    Edited to add: "Our forum"? Are you a moderator or the site owner?
    Last edited by RPN; 10-05-2012 at 12:38 PM.

  11. #26
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    In order to maintain access to the second port of the septic tank, there has to be a slight "crawl space". As it happens, the shower drain will also need to run through this area.
    Access to the septic means someone needs to pull the lid off for pumping. Is that going to be doable?
    Could the septic tank be move farther away from the structure?
    Are there other options?

  12. #27
    DIY Junior Member RPN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    This particular discussion has NOTHING at all to do with speeding or seat belt laws or any other law for that matter.
    Sure it does - unless you are saying that plumbing code is on a higher pedestal than any other law.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    It has to do with integrity.
    How so?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    Just because there is no one around watching you is not a reason to break the law. Any law.
    But you said "This particular discussion has NOTHING at all to do with speeding or seat belt laws or any other law for that matter."


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    If I encountered someone trying to do something (anything) similar in my neck of the woods I would have the state inspector out there with a cease and desist in a heartbeat and I'd make damn sure the guy knew exactly who turned him in.
    I absolutely believe you would. And you would never work around here again once word got out. Yes, I know, you would have your pride to keep you warm.

  13. #28
    DIY Junior Member RPN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Access to the septic means someone needs to pull the lid off for pumping. Is that going to be doable?
    Could the septic tank be move farther away from the structure?
    Are there other options?
    Hello, Terry.

    Yes, there will be approximately 24" beween the solids-side access port and the concrete floor above it. Not a fun job, but I could do it pretty easy. If it needs pumped, we will probably uncover the entire tank just to make access easier.

    I truly wish the tank could be moved. The house is on a flat spot on the side of a ridge. 20' past the tank, the land drops off again. I don't know what the original builder was thinking, but the next best place for the tank is about 50 yards uphill where a level pasture starts. At that point the tank would be higher than the house.

    Please my accept my apologies for the ugliness of this thread. If you feel that you need to delete some of the posts (or even the entire thread) to uphold the image of your forum, please do so.

  14. #29
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    RPN,
    The plumbers feel they need to take a tough line here. One of the things that separate countries is the building codes. When the Soviet Union collapsed my older sister was there. She spent a few weeks there during the turmoil of that time. She said that after seeing the poor construction techniques there, that there was no doubt that this was not a country that posed a threat to us.

    When I travel, I'm very careful about the food and the water that I take in. Most of those places have the plumbing on the outside of the buildings, and it's pretty much all done wrong. It's not a surprise looking at it, that you wouldn't want to drink their water. There are too many cross connections. I've even been in some nice homes there that had some pretty bad smelling plumbing. Nice tile, large soaking tub, bidets, and somehow they still messed up the plumbing in the walls.

    On some DIY sites, it is more tolerant. But then that's like asking the guy on the plumbing isle how to do a reconstruction of a broken foot.
    Tom Sawyer (not his real name) does get a bit grumpy. I'm sure that if he had to use a real name, and company name, the answers would be toned down a bit.
    Last edited by Terry; 10-05-2012 at 03:02 PM.

  15. #30
    DIY Junior Member RPN's Avatar
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    Terry, I understand completely. Thank you so much for the forum.


    For the morbidly curious, here is what we are doing with the tank and foundation situation. I am not asking for advice about it. I am merely including the drawings in hopes that my earlier remarks might be made more clear.


    Name:  Screen shot 2012-10-05 at 4.08.35 PM.jpg
Views: 78
Size:  54.6 KB

    Name:  Screen shot 2012-10-05 at 4.09.35 PM.jpg
Views: 71
Size:  52.6 KB
    Last edited by RPN; 10-05-2012 at 02:13 PM. Reason: Typo

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