(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 36

Thread: UPC Code question about water service sizing

  1. #16
    DIY Junior Member mike mann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    utah
    Posts
    15

    Default

    it's a approx 13,000sqft lot but with the detached 3 car garage (hobby shop) and pavement it's down to less than 1/2 of that in grass. if the $3500 would be enough to fix it then why wasn"t $7700 that i paid in the first place enough to get it done right? you mention "nominal" size of pipe. in your mind what is the actual id for 3/4 and 1/2 pipe/tubing using "nominal" pipe? i realize that it may seem like i'm beating a dead horse but i think we got the shaft and am trying to find areas in the code which i can force the city to do something to the gc as he has refused to make any significant corrections. other houses in our area that were built by him and plumbed by the same plumber have the same problems that we do. thanks again for your help-mike mann

  2. #17
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    21,381

    Default

    Supply pipe is often spec'ed by the OD. For example, 1/2" copper is actually 5/8" OD and 1/2" ID. Now, if you were to get 1/2" pex, the OD would be the same allowing you to use the same compression fittings (as long as you used the required internal stiffening bushing), so it gets called 1/2" even though the wall thickness is much thicker and the internally fitted connectors make it even less. That's what's meant by nominal size in this case...the OD is the same.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  3. #18
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    3,637

    Default

    Mike,

    How much area are you trying to water at 1 time. Does your system have zones ?

    I know a lot of systems have flow restriction built into the fixtures. It does suck when you want some big flow. It may not be your pipe size, but your incoming water feed. Adding a storage tank and booster pump may be something that you could do.

    I think you may be correct.


    Name:  Dead_Horse.gif
Views: 77
Size:  6.8 KB
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

  4. #19
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Posts
    25,605

    Default

    quote; in your mind what is the actual id for 3/4 and 1/2 pipe/tubing using "nominal" pipe?

    There is no "one" actual i.d. for "nominal piping". It varies according the the material. 1" sch. 40 PVC has a larger opening than 1" sch. 80 PVC, and both of them are smaller than 1" Class 100 PVC. The reason for the problem, is that in order for fittings to be compatible with ALL similar piping, the o.d. has to conform to the standard, but since the wall thickness varies according to the material and pressure rating, the i.d. has to fluctuate. My lot is 54,000 feet, with an extensive irrigation system and it cost nowhere near $3,000.00. Did the $7,500 include the landscaping? Often, whether it is "done right or not", depends on the designer and installer, NOT how much you pay for it.
    Licensed residential and commercial plumber

  5. #20
    DIY Junior Member mike mann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    utah
    Posts
    15

    Default

    talk about a estate(VBG). sprinkler syatem was design/installed by reliance homes employee/subcontractor who use 3/4" schedule 40 pvc. he assumed he had 11 gpm and wasn't concerned about pressure and this was suppose to be a expert. like plumbing i didn't know anything about sprinkler systems so took their word for it. he placed the sprinklers at their max operating distances and being as how he never had 11 gpm due to the plumbing we ended up with about 1/3 of the lawn going brown. even though the owners handbook says that "reliance homes is responsible for faulity workmenship or materials or bad coverage" the owner refused to allow any significant repairs to be done. the 3/4" copper line from the water meter (approx 20' from the house) enters thru a concrete wall in the basement wher fittings have been solder into the elbow to take the .640 id pex tubing. it goes up about 2/3' where a brass "t" is located that seperates the sprinkler water from the house. the house water goes thru a regulator and the across a 5'4" wide room using 3 plastic elbows which reduces the volume to .460 (per astm f2159-11) and has increased the length by (17.4x3=52.2') or about 60' total. this is before a drop of useable water even gets to the house and the whole house is plumbed in this fashion. being as how you can use a higher velocity to make up for the smaller diameter the volume of water available is controlled by it's smallest opening. the upc calls for certain standards to be met "at peak demand" which is a way to make sure that sufficient volume of water exists to run the water fixtures. using a flow test and using section 605.17.2 our house will not meet those requirements with just 1/3 of the total fixtures turned on let alone all of them. i know it's not the "real world" but the spec says "shall" which is a mandatory requirement. thank you for putting up with my ranting but i don't know plumbing/ sprinkler systems and etc and expected a turn key system that worked correctly when i paid my money and not what i got-mike mann

  6. #21
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    21,381

    Default

    From what I hear, in many places, a house your size would require a minimum of a 1" water line, so you're short just there.

    It may be possible to fairly easily make the connection to the sprinkler takeoff all copper with no restictions, but you won't get 11gpm at a safe velocity through the pipes. A common max flow rate is often given at around 6'/second and with a full 3/4" ID pipe (which you don't have), that only comes to about 8gpm. Going faster than that can cause cavitation damage to the piping system, noise, and is not good.

    If the sprinkler system, as designed by the builder, can only reach 1/3 of the lawn, then there's a breach of contract. Check the max limits of small claims court in your area.

    In your locale, what size water supply line is required by code?
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  7. #22
    DIY Junior Member mike mann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    utah
    Posts
    15

    Default

    sprinklers get to about 2/3 of the lawn. in utah water line size is 3/4". this is what is bothering me if the code allows for protrusions to be put into lines that reduce the water flow from 3/4" copper to 3/4" pex and then put fitting into it that further reduce the volume to about 1/2" which is effectively what i have. the 3/4" as specified by code lasted until the pipe went thru the foundation and then got reduced all before the house saw a drop. can't believe that was the intent of the code-mike mann

  8. #23
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    21,381

    Default

    To make the sprinkler system work, it may need to be zoned to maximize flow to those heads it is feeding. For the designer to design for 11gpm, when a max available is significantly less is irresponsible, and not professional. While it might have worked with a true 11gpm available, the builder saw fit to not make that possible.

    Out of curiosity, assuming the sprinklers are on the same tap as any outside water spigots, see how many gpm you can get from that. It should give you a reasonable idea of the max flow.
    Last edited by jadnashua; 09-18-2012 at 02:08 PM.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  9. #24
    DIY Junior Member mike mann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    utah
    Posts
    15

    Default

    using the west side facuet with no other water running it took 1 minute and 15 seconds to fill a 5 gallon jerry can. does the upc have a table similar to irc code p2903.1 which shows the required capacities at point of outlet discharge? thanks-mike mann

  10. #25
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    21,381

    Default

    that's all of 4gpm, no wonder the sprinkler system doesn't work if it was designed for 11gpm. Now, the valve and pipe to that spigot are not 3/4", but it is an indication of the issues. Since that's on the supply side of the PRV, that's not an issue. Note, while a PRV may be code, it should be set to near the max (80psi) to maximize your flow. Don't know what to say, I'm neither a plumber or a lawyer.

    What is your static pressure again?
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  11. #26
    DIY Junior Member mike mann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    utah
    Posts
    15

    Default

    at the water main it's 55psi. like you i'm in way over my head on this. retired after 40 years in the defense industry but nothing ever taught me how to handle something like this. thats why i'm hoping to find a table like the irc p2903.1 in the upc code because i'm way below the amounts in the table with only 1/3 of the water fixtures turned on and it says they can all be on. build inspectors can't argue with that and i can get the gc-mike

  12. #27
    DIY Junior Member mike mann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    utah
    Posts
    15

    Default

    after all this time the west valley city inspection department has just sent a letter to the home builder telling him that the house is in non-compliance with the plumbing code and other things. not sure where it's going from here as one of the addendums they signed said that the house will meet all applicable building codes before we accepted it so we shall see what happens next. just wanted to say thanks for all your help and advice-mike mann

  13. #28
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    3,637

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mike mann View Post
    after all this time the west valley city inspection department has just sent a letter to the home builder telling him that the house is in non-compliance with the plumbing code and other things. not sure where it's going from here as one of the addendums they signed said that the house will meet all applicable building codes before we accepted it so we shall see what happens next. just wanted to say thanks for all your help and advice-mike mann

    They will make you bring it up to code and raise your taxes because of a improvement.

    It may have been to long to go after the builder, and the Inspector must have already passed it.

    Just my guess.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

  14. #29
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Posts
    25,605

    Default

    You may be in for a long legal process. The city, when they approve the plans for construction, ALWAYS inserts a CYA clause that says they are not responsible for any code violations even if they are approved on the plans. The builder and plumber, however, will assert that they installed it as per the city's approval, using the proper "nominal" pipe sizes, regardless of the actual i.d.s. They are NOT going to decontruct your house without a legal fight which could go on for years, because if they accede on yours, EVERYONE else will jump on board and want their houses "upgraded" also.
    Licensed residential and commercial plumber

  15. #30
    DIY Junior Member mike mann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    utah
    Posts
    15

    Default

    the chief building inspector sent a letter to the home builder saying that the house plumbing system has to meet the requirements of upc table p2903.1 period. at peak demand we have a trickle at the kitchen faucet and none at the west outside faucet. he's requiring the builder to have a independent plumber do the test with a city inspector watching. he also states that the builder is in violation of the irc which is going to be interesting as the builder signed a addendum stating that the house meets all the applicable building code requirements. i could very well bring my neighbors (whom have the same problems into it) and at the very least i think i have grounds for a civil suit against the builder. thanks again for everyones help-mike mann

Similar Threads

  1. Sizing Question for very hard water and one person
    By Mike16W in forum Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and reviews
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 10-23-2011, 02:35 PM
  2. Water heater service disconnect question
    By turnsouth in forum Electrical Forum discussion & Blog
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 08-16-2010, 12:26 PM
  3. How water pipe sizing question
    By smallshop in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-30-2009, 12:15 PM
  4. Hot Water heater sizing question
    By ron in sc in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 04-12-2008, 07:08 PM
  5. Commercial Water Service Pricing Question...
    By BSA Construction LLC in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 10-18-2007, 05:21 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •