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Thread: Jet pump to submersable conversion questions.

  1. #16
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wet Willie View Post
    So in essence I can run 220 through my existing 10/2 with ground into a box (of some sort) and pull 220 from box to pump AND use just one conductor and ground from "box" to power 110?
    No You can not do that.

    It may work, but it will not meet code.

    The ground conductor is not meant to be a current carrying conductor.

    You can use it for 120 or 240, but not both.
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

  2. #17
    DIY Senior Member craigpump's Avatar
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    A 220v pump motor will draw less current or amperage than the same pump that operates on 110v, so you would be better off with a 220v unit. Not knowing what your drawdown level is, is a disadvantage, but I would use a 1/2 hp 5 gpm unit rather than a 10 gpm unit.

    If you have to use a safety rope to get your pump out, you should have used better pipe to begin with. Hang the pump on schedule 80 pvc or 160 psi poly, use a pump with stainless steel discharge head and be sure to use a stainless male X insert adapter with double stainless steel clamps to attach the pump to the pipe. Do not use brass with stainless! Warm the pipe with a torch and push it over the insert fitting, do not put it on cold or use a lubricate to help put it on!! Depending on which Loc Tite you use, it may not be rated for potability, instead use a Teflon paste of Rector Seal.

  3. #18
    Porky Cutter,MGWC Porky's Avatar
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    * Yes, a 1/2 hp 10 gpm pump will be sufficient.
    * The difference between a 2 wire and a 3 wire pump is a personal perference!
    * I prefer a 230 volt pump but a 115 volt is OK!
    * Do I have to run a ground wire to the well casing? No, a ground wire must be connected to the pump case!
    * The wire should be taped to the supply line every at least every 10'.
    * I wouldn't install a rope because of future problems of the rope binding the pump in the well.
    * I recommend installing a CSV or Pside-kick on all water systems except when open pumping into a lake or pond. http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html
    Porky Cutter, MGWC
    (Master Ground Water Consultant)

  4. #19
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    If unclear about the choice of HP and GPM, get familiar with pump curves. Everyone seems to agree on 1/2 HP but not on the GPM. Given the water is at 74 feet, moving 10 GPM with 1/2 HP IMHO is on the edge of the curve and depending on what pressure you want in the house, and how many floors there are in the house etc., it might be cutting it too close. A 5 or 7 GPM would have more margin.

    It would be good to know all the reasons for converting from jet to sub as some of those reasons would factor in the choice. Some folk struggle with the concept of GPM versus pressure and just see it as a pressure problem. Trying to mitigate a GPM problem in the wellhouse won't work if the problem is the plumbing in the house. Agreed that any of the mentioned pumps would out-perform the jet that was there.

  5. #20
    DIY Junior Member Wet Willie's Avatar
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    Ok, so some of my questions are answered and some answers raise more questions, not to mention some questions received different answers. Either way I really appreciate everyone's feedback.

    So far I've decided on the following:
    • 220v pump possibly 3/4 hp because it's in stock at big box home improvement store.
    • Run 220 through existing 10/2 wire
    • Run additional wire for needed 110v


    I'm undecided on use of rope mainly because it sounds like a good idea but don't understand how it could jam and cause problems with a 4" pump in a 6" casing. I plan on using my existing pipe and assume that it's sufficient for the conversion. I'm also confused about the torque arrestor, that seems like more of an issue than the rope when/if I need to pull the pump....how snug of a fit does it need to be to work properly? I'm also having trouble locating submersible wire locally but haven't checked plumbing supply because they're closed until tomorrow.

    As far as the reason for conversion, hopefully I can clear that up a little.

    The original setup as I understand it has been troublesome for years but my history only goes back 2 1/2 years. If you flushed the toilets multiple times you would lose water, showers were limited to 2 a day one in am and one in pm or you would lose water. When running the washing machine you would usually have to interrupt it during fill up and wait for pressure to build back up or you would lose water. More recently the pump would run continuously and might reach a maximum of 30 psi. When you lose water I could reprime the pump and have water again but would lose it again if the previously mentioned actions were taken. I checked for leaks, cleaned and then replaced pressure switch. I then found this site and learned about foot valves and injectors so I replaced them....this raised the pressure a little and gave some relief for about 2 months before going back to the issues. I pulled the lines again and checked FV and injector and all was good. We has a professional come out and he said the well was sufficient for our needs but the pump was worn out and that even in tip top shape the jet pump setup was at it's maximum for our application. At this point a toilet flush will cause loss of water and I'm lucky to get 20 psi out of set up.

    The well serves 2 adults living in a 2 bath 1 story ranch with a dishwasher and a washing machine. The well is slightly above the grade of the house and we don't use irrigation, sprinklers, etc but do occasionally run the garden hose on "mist" overnight to compensate for water loss in pool.

  6. #21
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    Losing prime under moderate to heavy use suggests that the water level in the well is falling and the pump is sucking air but it could also be a suction side leak that is exacerbated as the level drops. It would be good to know the specifics of how deep the in-well injector was set and what the actual recovery rate is for the well. Without knowing for sure, a 3/4 HP, 10 GPM pump may empty the well casing fairly quickly. With about 60 feet of reserve in the casing, (that would be almost 90 gallons) the existing pump should not have sucked in air so one has to assume the footvalve was not set near the bottom.

    When you say "lose water", what specifically happens? If the pump has a low pressure safety cut-off, those can be a source of frustration if/when draw exceeds capacity. If a bladder tank has too much precharge, the bladder will hit the bottom resulting in total loss of reserve, possibly tripping a low cut-off and/or losing the pressure that a jet pump needs to make more pressure. I often read on this forum that the pump doesn't make the pressure, that it is the jet/venturi that does. That is a half truth. The pump provides pressure to the jet which in turn makes additional pressure.

    You still have not said what size pressure tank you have and if it is a bladder tank. A large tank can represent a significant draw on the well. From kick-in to kick-out, the drawdown amount is refilled at full pump capacity. At 40/60 a 120 gal tank may require 32 gal in one pump cycle.

  7. #22
    DIY Junior Member Wet Willie's Avatar
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    The foot valve is 35 feet below the water level, I don't know the recovery rate. I've pulled the lines twice and checked for leaks, I'm fairly confident no leak exist. When I say lose water I mean the pressure at the pump drops to zero. There isn't a low pressure shut off, the pump will run continuously. When this happens I shut off the pump and reprime it. When I turn the pump back on I may get 30 psi immediately but usually 20-22 psi. I can turn on a spigot at the pump house and within 20-30 seconds the pressure will drop to zero again. We used to have to reprime may be once a month or so under accidental heavy use but the problem has gotten progressively worse to where flushing a toilet with result in 0 water pressure.

    The tank is a precharge that I initially had set at 2 psi below pump cut on but since it will barely obtain pressure higher than cut on I don't know what that does to the equation, I now have tank set at 12 psi. Not sure of tank size but its roughly 3 feet high and may be 20-24 inches in diameter.
    Last edited by Wet Willie; 09-09-2012 at 12:40 PM.

  8. #23
    DIY Senior Member craigpump's Avatar
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    35' of water is 52.5 gallons. I would get someone in there to check the actual recovery rate of the well, pump it down and measure the recovery. I hate to see people spend their good, hard earned money on an upgraded pump system just to discover the well won't meet their needs.

    Should the well have a decent recovery, spend the extra money for a top of the line Stainless Steel pump. I throw away a lot of pumps from big box stores and I would never put one in.

    Forget the rope idea. If for some reason it falls down the well, it will become a big ball on top of the pump and can create a real problem for you. Like I said earlier, use better pipe. I prefer sch 80 pvc but 160 psi poly will work for you. I wouldn't use the old pipe, if it has a weak spot or split it will give you continued headaches.

    Most pump installers use football type torque arrestors. They need to be adjusted so that they drag the well, this absorbs the torque from the pump and helps prevent chafing of the wire.

  9. #24
    DIY Member bcpumpguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigpump View Post
    35' of water is 52.5 gallons. I would get someone in there to check the actual recovery rate of the well, pump it down and measure the recovery. I hate to see people spend their good, hard earned money on an upgraded pump system just to discover the well won't meet their needs.

    Should the well have a decent recovery, spend the extra money for a top of the line Stainless Steel pump. I throw away a lot of pumps from big box stores and I would never put one in.

    Forget the rope idea. If for some reason it falls down the well, it will become a big ball on top of the pump and can create a real problem for you. Like I said earlier, use better pipe. I prefer sch 80 pvc but 160 psi poly will work for you. I wouldn't use the old pipe, if it has a weak spot or split it will give you continued headaches.

    Most pump installers use football type torque arrestors. They need to be adjusted so that they drag the well, this absorbs the torque from the pump and helps prevent chafing of the wire.
    Just wondering where your love for sched 80 pvc for drop pipe comes from? I personally hate the stuff for well use, when I do use pvc pipe i use Johnson shurealign which is actually engineered for well use. On shallow wells like this why not use Polydrop pipe? it sucks having to pull out 20 foot lengths of pvc pipe on a set like this.

  10. #25
    DIYer, not in the trades LLigetfa's Avatar
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    My pump is hung on 160 PSI poly with standoffs every 10 feet. The safety rope is taped to the poly pipe along with the wire. There is no chance of the rope falling down the well and balling up on top of the pump. I have a torque arrestor installed.

  11. #26
    In the Trades Texas Wellman's Avatar
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    I prefer the sch 80 drop pipe also. I won't set one on poly. Do you have a pump hoist? How do you pull the poly pipe out?

    Quote Originally Posted by bcpumpguy View Post
    Just wondering where your love for sched 80 pvc for drop pipe comes from? I personally hate the stuff for well use, when I do use pvc pipe i use Johnson shurealign which is actually engineered for well use. On shallow wells like this why not use Polydrop pipe? it sucks having to pull out 20 foot lengths of pvc pipe on a set like this.

  12. #27
    DIY Senior Member craigpump's Avatar
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    Have you ever had to try to free a stuck pump hung on poly pipe? Pretty tough to do..... I have tried the belled end and threaded pipe on a few jobs, the last one I did, the bell deformed from the weight, 440' and slipped through my monitor style elevator. Luckily I still had the pipe on the footjack. After that I went back to t&c sch80.

    True taping the rope with the wire to the pipe is the better way to go, but a lot of guys (especially homeowners) don't do that.

    If you need to use a rope to retrieve the pump, you should have used better pipe.

    I can pull poly with my hoist but it's a pain in the ass, 2 3rd hands and a closed loop strap. Pull 30', clamp it off, pull 30' clamp it off and so on.
    Last edited by craigpump; 09-11-2012 at 02:23 PM.

  13. #28
    DIY Junior Member Wet Willie's Avatar
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    Wet Willie is Wet Again!

  14. #29
    DIY Member bcpumpguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigpump View Post
    Have you ever had to try to free a stuck pump hung on poly pipe? Pretty tough to do..... I have tried the belled end and threaded pipe on a few jobs, the last one I did, the bell deformed from the weight, 440' and slipped through my monitor style elevator. Luckily I still had the pipe on the footjack. After that I went back to t&c sch80.

    True taping the rope with the wire to the pipe is the better way to go, but a lot of guys (especially homeowners) don't do that.

    If you need to use a rope to retrieve the pump, you should have used better pipe.

    I can pull poly with my hoist but it's a pain in the ass, 2 3rd hands and a closed loop strap. Pull 30', clamp it off, pull 30' clamp it off and so on.
    As a rule we never set poly deeper than 200 feet, and when they are set that deep we have an electric winch to pull with. I have used quite a bit of the johnson surealign schd 120 it does not deform i can tell you that, its also impossible to cross thread which is nice when you're in a hurry. So you must be buying sched 80 threaded on both sides and using brass couplings? Around here i have seen it done but usually its glued, or they glue on male and female adapters which really makes me nervous. Specially when you pull it out and and you can see a crack in the female adapter....


    http://www.johnsonscreens.com/en/con...lign-drop-pipe

  15. #30
    Well Drilling/Service justwater's Avatar
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    wow, seriously? they glue a female on one end and a male on the other and connect pipes?? pinheads!!

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