American Standard Champion toilet Review and comments. Rated #1 by Consumer Reports

[wjcandee]

The official AS complete tank to bowl set including the big gasket for the flush valve: 738756-0070A, but it sucks that you would have to pay $14 when only one washer is bad. However, the repair parts diagram only shows this kit; nothing seems to come separately.

That said, I seem to recall a plumber on here saying that he tosses the AS tank to bowl set because it sucks and installs the toilet with a good Wolverine Brass tank-to-bowl set. You can't buy that, but it suggests that a good-quality brass tank-to-bowl set would work. If you get the official parts online, that's certainly easy, but I would consult a plumbing supply place about a good solid tank-to-bowl set that would fit this toilet (preferably a double-nut setup where you attach the bolt to the tank with one nut and the assembly to the base with another. [ E.g. in tank goes bolt head and rubber washer, on other side of tank goes metal washer and nut, then insert same into hole in base, and attach rubber washer, metal washer and second nut.]_Of course, if I recall, the crappy design of this toilet makes the nut very hard to access, so you may need to be sure that you have a long socket that will fit the nut.

Sorry can't be more help. I'm sure one of the pros will have more ideas.

[jadnashua]

Use any brass or SS tank bolt set. Plain or plated steel will rust and eventually leak.

[wjcandee]

Thanks, Jim, for the definitive answer. I think he probably doesn't want one with the wing-nuts, though, right, because of the exceptionally-deep recess where the bolts tie through the base; need something you can get a deep socket on. Maybe something like the Lasco 04-3675, which has solid brass bolts and washers, and heavy rubber washers. Scott9393, just google that and you'll see what we're talking about. Unfortunately, I didn't see anything of quality at the HD web site; it's all galvanized or just brass-plated or has those wing nuts that probably won't work for you.

Also, some tips if you haven't done this before: (1) when you have the tank off, take some fine sandpaper and lightly sand the inside of the tank next to the bolt holes and even a little into the bolt holes. This will give you a nice smooth surface for the rubber washer to seal against [if you look at Jamie Love's primer on how to install a toilet, he does this on every installation]; (2) when you remount the tank, getting it stable and solid requires patience; the proper way to do it (and sometimes to redo it a few times until it's right) is to mount the tank and hold it exactly level and square with one hand (or have a helper do that), while you twist a couple of turns on one bolt, then the other bolt, then the first bolt, then the other bolt, back and forth really slowly, until you see the tank make the contact described in the instructions (which you can find here: Champion Installation Instructions ) Everyone tells you not to overtighten. What this means is don't tighten once you see the tank make contact; it should simultaneously contact the mounting ribs shown in the diagram; if it's tilted, then release a little, straighten, and tighten again. Once china hits china, stop. Jim recommends putting a piece of paper in there and when the tank squeezes the paper, stop. But don't freak out if you're tightening and it takes a long time for the contact to be made; seems like lots of DIY-ers give up too soon and then complain about tank wobble. You haven't "overtightened" until china has contacted china, but you don't want to tighten after any china contact has been made. That said, be vigilant for the tank to touch one rib before the other -- you don't want to be watching one spot and crack it because another spot has made contact; it takes some care to get it all to touch about the same time. (3) When you're doing a double-nut installation, once again, it goes: rubber washer under bolt head inside of tank (NO metal washer in there; causes leaks), then metal washer and nut on outside of tank, then place tank on bowl, then under bowl goes rubber washer, metal washer and second nut.

Hope this helps.

[ballvalve]

Incredibly, the American standard 3 flo-wise production is moved or moving back to the USA. Good on them.

So would anyone that gets one tell us if the quality has gone up?

http://www.americanstandard-us.com/p...s/made-in-usa/

[wjcandee]

Maybe not so good on them. As I noted in a different thread, the only thing AS moved back to the US was the absolute minimum number of models necessary to be able to keep getting government contracts with stimulus money. Totally self-serving and hypocritical. Note that: (1) the only color made in the US is White, which is what the gov't contracts call for; (2) they're only making the toilet that public works projects want: the Cadet and the flushometer bowl, and a couple of gov't-suitable sinks; (3) they still sell the exact same thing without the US in the model number, hecho en Mexico, along with ALL the non-white Cadet 3s; (4) the trim and guts are all made elsewhere and only the china is made in the USA, etc.

It's waving the flag and suggesting that they are making more here than they do. They are only making as much here as is necessary to meet the domestic-contents requirements of the Stimulus Bill. When those funds get spent, almost assuredly this US manufacturing will cease. Every little bit helps, but frankly I think it's evil for them to suggest that they are doing this for any reason other than that they are being forced to, so that they don't lose the business to Toto, which, ironically, makes a broader line of products in the US. (Ever go to the bathroom at the busiest airport in the world (Atlanta)? Guess whose domestically-made toilets and urinals are in every renovated section.)

[ballvalve]

So sometimes politics works. But you are wrong about public works. I have searched the internet, and the AS that are made here are clearly spelled out in the ads. Terry does not like these links, but have a look see. There are MANY one-off little guy buy - sites.

And no, they are not going back because Americans will work for food today, and the cost of gas here [2/3 the cost of the toilet?] is cheaper than saudi arabia and much less than Mexico and columbia, etc.

It doesnt take a Rhodes scholar to figure out that much of the cost after firing a toilet is moving it, and that if TOTO can MFG at a profit in America, So can ANYBODY else bright enough to hire the right factory designer. Also, no genius required to saw a toto in half and copy it like the Asians have done to everything we created.

First guy to cast a toilet out of milk bottles and gel-coat it is the next Bill gates, money wise. Every turd dropped by a greenie and subaru driver and college grad will go into one. Gonna be a lot of laughter in the future about the porcelin throne.

The "buy American act" should be in everyones gut, by nature. Since the govt. wrecked us with NAFTA, its the least they can do to make up for that crime. The "fence" to keep the south americans down south should be a row of factories from Texas to San Diego, just on the American side, with the only doors and windows on the mexican side.

As for some parts from across a border, so what? has nothing to do with hypocrisy. Try and find a car thats 100% any country.

If you need color get a US Mansfield. 10 pages of US products.

[ishouldhaveknownthat]

Went to Home Depot and fell for the golf balls advertising. Got a AS Champion 4. It was marked down to $150 from $218. Store said that someone had bought it assuming it was elongated and it was round (in the wrong box). They returned it without the box.
It looked to be brand new. In the process of installing it tomorrow.

Got this to replace a cheaper AS with the same 1.6 gpf. The main problem with the old one is it doesn't work. It never flushed properly, even after multiple flushes. The water just swirled around. Have plunged it many times. Has always been weak at flushing. Poked the holes around the rim. Replaced the water line. Still the same result. Yeah, I know I never learn.

Question is, knowing what everyone knows, what would you recommend me getting as extra parts for this new Champion 4 toilet as future parts that could/will break down?
I'm thinking that eventually AS will go out of business. Want to have extra parts to be able to fix without looking all over when/if that happens.

[wjcandee]

There's nothing special about the fill valve on the Champion 4; you could replace it with any number of valves, including a Korky 528MP available at Lowe's, so don't sweat that.

The flush valve is another story, although I'm thinking it realistically will be around for a while. The thing that goes bad on the Champion is the seal in the complicated flush valve, and Korky makes a replacement seal that's probably better than the original. It's model 450BP (or BPK at Lowe's). Maybe keep one of those on hand. I don't think any of the other hardware is irreplaceable or non-substitutable, as far as I can remember.

You'll probably want to trash that thing before any of the other hardware needs replacing. For the non-discounted price, you could have bought a Toto Drake and not have had to worry about this stuff, but live and learn. Once you get it running, and assuming that it doesn't wobble or leak, doesn't have defects, etc., it ought to work.

[ishouldhaveknownthat]

Well, I was told...

Went to put in the AS Champion 4 today and noticed it had been patched in two places underneath with some kind of white stuff that didn't match the toilet. Also had some residual wax underneath where the original people who bought it had actually tried to install it looks like.
After seeing this, I took it outside onto our walkway and put a little water in the bowl, waited several minutes, and looked underneath. Sure enough, it was leaking water in two places underneath where the patchwork was.
Back to Home Depot it goes!!! Good thing I had not taken out the old one yet (an AS), even though it doesn't work.

I have learned my lesson. Going to get a Toto Drake.
Any suggestions for a good value on one in the Austin area?

By the way, we have very hard water (an old well) so wondering about the Drake if it uses parts that don't break down or rust.
Would it still be a good idea to get a brass or SS tank bolt set, or does the Drake come with one already?

[wjcandee]

KIVA Kitchen and Bath is a dealer in Austin. You may have to hondle with them a bit. You can also look around on here to see where folks have bought their toilets.

I think you'll be okay with the Toto parts... But you need your own wax and closet bolts and seat.

[ishouldhaveknownthat]

Thanks.
Wow, they are high. Quoted me a price $100 higher than another place I called for the same model.

[wjcandee]

I just pulled their name off the toto list. I'm not recommending them, just trying to be helpful. You should be in the low 200s; that's a fair spot to be, however you get it.

Also, check the watersense list at epa.gov to see if you might qualify for a rebate on a 1.28 gpf if you use the CST744E model... Watersense rebate search utility

And just FYI; I know you had a round Champion. We generally recommend the elongated toilet unless you have a specific preference against it and/or you have some important architectural feature like a swinging door that requires the extra space afforded by the round. The round is a smidge cheaper than the elongated, but not materially-so. The round-bowl Drake is CST743S (for the 1.6 gpf) and CST743E (for the 1.28); the elongated is CST744S (for the 1.6) and CST744E (for the 1.28).

[ishouldhaveknownthat]

Got from Josco Plumbing Supply. Very helpful. Installed it last night. Got the gforce one. Impressive flush. Got the round due to our limited space where it is and wife wanted it.

[wjcandee]

I have that exact toilet (i.e. round Drake). It's a winner. Hope you continue to enjoy it!

[Acinchus Apexstar]

We need to replace toilets in our 19-20 yr old home and in the one bathroom we have a platform running above the tank, so can go with only 28 inch height. We are getting floor tile work done in the bath room in 10 days and want to replace toilets then, so our choices are to go with models available at HD or Lowes, and besides couple of less rated Kohler models (Wellworth, Santa Rosa) the only model that seems to meet our criteria is the AS Champion 4.

But after reading the leaking valve problems in other sites and then on this forum, I need to build confidence in decision to go with Champion 4.

So the main question: Is it possible to get a long (5-10yrs) leak free install with Champion 4?

I am willing to spend a little more in getting replacement parts vs using OEM part.
Need a recommended list of parts I should get in advance of our floor install based on the experiences folks have had.
I will be getting a plumber to get this installation as right as possible.