The last plumber ran all the water under the slab. In CPVC.
He was pissed that he had to redo 70% of the water piping. In this economy, some of the plumbing contractors would be happy to go to the other side of the state for another choice job, especially since the first has the steepest learning curve.
Semi-professional plumbing designer
Enjoying life in SW Florida
That's how I change them.The plumbing contractors have to turn in submittal for all equipment and fixtures they intend to use for approval by the owner, the architect and finally by the engineers.
It works the same here.
I guess in Florida things haven't changed much.
Here in Seattle, we use the good products.
Seatac airport uses TOTO in their new projects.
The crew down there says those are their trouble free units.
Emerald Queen Casino has TOTO in their new digs.
And many new projects in the high rises have been going TOTO.
Macy's Lynnwood went with American Standard on their new stuff, but it's plugging up all the time. Too bad for Macy's.
Their old bathrooms used American Standard too.
Drop the paper in the front of the bowl, and it doesn't go anywhere.
How strange is that?
I've spec'd Toto on 3 jobs in the last year or so, none have gone in. I'm still much happier with AS than with some of the other brands.
Semi-professional plumbing designer
Enjoying life in SW Florida
I can see on my own toilet that this seems to be working great. I don't totally understand it, but I will keep this in mind. And the toilet works perfectly now, which is the main thing.
The water level in the tank is governed by the adjustment on the fill valve. The water level in the bowl is predetermined by the construction of the toilet. There is very little relationship between them. HOWEVER, if there is something defective with the bowl so it will lose water, AND the tank is also defective so it loses water, that water will keep the defective bowl filled, UNTIL you repair the tank problem, and then the problem with the bowl losing water will "appear", seemingly suddenly.
A recent post said to make some Champions being sold are not most current version and recommended checking box for manufacture date. I was at a big bos store today and tried to do that, but could not find a date on the box. Can anyone tell me where to look for the manufacture date?
I'm tired of replacing seals on the 4" flapper. To the dump this American Standard Champion 4 goes.
Way too much trouble with leaking flappers.
This time I'm going with a toilet made in the USA, a TOTO Ultramax.
A new American Standard Champion headed to the recycle dump.
Last edited by Terry; 01-23-2010 at 08:19 AM.
Then look for any small print that resembles dthe date and/or time. Be aware the date time format may differ. (e.g. 25OCT09 6:04PM or maybe 102509 18:04 )
American Standard should be put out of business. I have two of their "Champion" toilets that I had installed three years ago and the only thing they are champions at is clogging and being almost impossible to unclog.
I managed to get their "customer service" department on the line when I called their 800 # shortly after these pieces of junk were installed and their suggestion was, they really said this, "Take a wire coat hanger, untwist it and go under the rim with the hook of the hanger and stick into the holes to make sure none of them are closed."
I did this and it didn't help at all, which I expected, since the problem never appeared to be the flow of water out of the tank and into the bowl but inability built into this product to get solid waste down the drain and past whatever impediment was clearly engineered into this health hazard of a toilet.
A terrible product made by a terrible company with a clear intent, judging from my experience with customer service, to take money and provide nothing of value in return. Right now, I avoid using these two toilets and use a third in our basement. Neither it nor the two toilets I replaced with these pieces of junk ever had this problem.
The American Standard toilets, when used, clog at least 60 per cent of the time and are so poorly designed that to remove the clog usually requires a minimum of plunging whichever of the toilets has clogged 30 or 40 times and an additional 6 to 10 flushes before the clog can be cleared.
I will never, never, never again buy anything made by American Standard, will always recommend against there products to anyone mentioning bathroom remodeling (I am a realtor and clients often ask advice about remodeling projects) and hope that anyone reading this would follow suit.
Picked up one of these at Lowe's today. I'm willing to bet it lasts a lot longer than the American Standard blue pos seal. The original blue seal blistered and leaked in about a year - and no chlorine tablets in the tank ....
The red ones are "supposed" to be chemical resistant. I just tell customers to wait around 6 months, tell them it's leaking and get them ahead of time so they have it ready to go when they do blister.
You can also flip those seals over to get more time out of them. In the same fashion they used to do to faucet seat washers.
Read what the end of this sentence means.
First I'll cover the bowl fill problem resolution.
I discovered this fix while discussing this issue in a separate thread started by “larrymcg” but I think it will help more people here.
If you have a Champion 4 toilet and you think the bowl is not filling completely after a flush, check for one of these inside the fill tube.
It’s a flow restrictor and it was inside the rubber fill tube where it connects to the fill valve. It was hidden about a half inch inside the tube so you might not see it. Try squeezing the tube to see if it’s there. Removing the restrictor corrected the bowl fill problem in my Champion 4.
Before I start the review, I want to say that I really wanted a Toto based on all the positive reviews here and I would have bought one too if I could get one "off the shelf" locally at a plumbing supply place (Note: It turns out I could have – see more later). I found a few plumbing supply showrooms where I could order a Toto and get it in a few days (or weeks depending on color) but the show rooms didn’t stock anything. So I took a chance with a Champion 4.
Now my initial review of the Champion 4.
I bought the champion 4 elongated “Right Height” at Lowes about 2 weeks ago (late January 2010).
The packaging used for these is terrible. Look for a sealed box then open and inspect it at the store before you buy or at least before you leave the parking lot.
The first thing I noticed was that the inside of the trap seemed rough. I was as if it was not glazed properly but that wasn’t the case. It was just some substance that had to be cleaned off. The glaze was fine. This was not how it should have been sold and I could easily see someone rejecting it or returning it based on that crud on the surface in the trap. After it was cleaned off, the glaze in the trap seemed fine. Maybe it was remnants of some polish they didn’t remove. As Terry consistently says, their quality control and workmanship are lacking.
The elongated “Right Height” bowl is very big and you’re going to need all of the 12” rough-in space for it to fit. If you’re rough-in is any smaller than 12”, you may not get it to fit.
It does take some fineness to attach the tank to the bowl and avoid the “tank wobble” that many complained about. You must tighten the bolts, alternating sides, until the tank hits the tabs on the bowl. In my case, the front tabs contacted first but that's not tight enough. As you continue to tighten, the tank will then start to level itself out as it begins to come in contact with the back tabs. Don’t tighten it any more than that. Does it seem like you’re going to crack the tank or bowl? Yes it does. Will it crack? It shouldn’t unless you tighten it beyond the point where the tabs make contact.
The included seat is flimsy and makes the overall feel of this toilet feel cheap even though the toilet itself has a very solid feel. Other than the flimsy feel, the seat works fine but I’m going to replace it with something better soon.
Adding to the cheap feel, is the chrome plated plastic flush lever. Not only is the handle plastic, but the actual lever is too. This results in a slightly springy feel to the flush because the plastic lever bends as you push the handle down. Eventually there is enough force to pull the flapper up. I don’t like the feel. I could live with it but I replaced it with a metal version I got online for about $16 (it’s the one AS sells for the original champion). I like the feel much better but obviously there’s no real performance benefit. By the way, the flush demonstration video on the American Standard website is misleading. It shows the inside of the tank during a flush and clearly shows the lever as being metal.
In my opinion, if a company wants to impress consumers, all the components that we have direct interaction with on a daily basis (Seat, Flush handle etc) should be designed to look and feel substantial. This is not the case with the Champion 4. I’d pay more if they offered better parts. Maybe they cheapen the ones that they sell at Lowes and Home Depot.
Speaking of Lowes and Home Depot, their part numbers for what seems to be an identical Champion 4 Toilet kit are different. At Lowes the part number is “2793.000.020” which I can’t find on the AS website. At Home Depot, the part number is “2586.000.020” which I can find on the AS website. I’ve looked closely at both in the stores and can’t see any difference at all. Does anyone here know why there are different part numbers?
Results: There's no doubt that it has a powerful flush. Everything seems to be working very well. But…
I don’t like the “Right Height” ADA size. I don’t know why this is such a big trend but I don’t like it. So, I moved it to my son’s bathroom (where it replaced a clog prone Mansfield installed by the builder 10 years ago).
Since I knew I wanted a standard height toilet and would have to order it whether it was a TOTO or a Champion 4, I decided to get the Ultramax in Sedona Beige because I thought the master bath deserved a more stylish one piece in off white. I decided to checkout one last Plumbing Supply Showroom near where I work that was listed on Toto's website. They had several Toto’s in stock including an Ultramax in Sedona Beige! I would have preferred the Eco-Ultramax because of the water rebates being offered but there were none in stock and the order would have taken 3 to 4 weeks.
The Toto Ultramax is everything people here say it is. The Toto workmanship is amazing. The included seat is far better than the included seat on the Champion (though it does make creaking sounds). Here’s something surprising, a Toto Ultramax is much less expensive than the 1-piece Champion 4 (which doesn’t even include a seat).
I hope to report back on their performance after a year or so to see how they both hold up.
Last edited by Geobrick; 02-08-2010 at 12:12 AM.
Ive got the flush valve for this champion toilet,
i seen where it was building calcium,
it was the tower on the left side
not the flush tower,
I saw all this calciium under the grey colored tower with the rubber donut on it,
It seems like the tower worked better,
and the water didnt go down when all this calcium came out of the fill tower on the left of tank,
can you get a fill tower on warranty,
heres my number off toilet, 4260,
I about give up on this thing,
I dont know where the water is going?
theres no bubbling in the tank,and I cant see anything going in the bowl,
it goes down really slow and then compensates filling up again about every 20 min's,